Seeding at State

[leroy34 1]

Ranger 123,

    I would like to get your opinion or anyone else's on seeding the state tournament.  I have always thought that the top 4 kids as long as they win their regions should be seeded.  This would allow the 1 and 2 kids  the opportunity to run out of the tunnel Saturday night instead of facing off Friday or Saturday morning.  Which then makes the finals somewhat of a scrimmage.  For example putting Elam and Bradbury on the same side clearly takes some of the great buildup away from the 103 finals.  Another ex. two years ago at 112 you have Coty Lewis 1, Luna 2, and Puckett 3, all on the same side while Josh Johnson walks to the finals.  "No disrespect to Josh" Every year at this time grumbling starts about good and bad draws.  Don't get me wrong I am a firm believer in you have got to beat them sooner or later.  But as far as the venue has come from our old days at Atherton it should be the two best kids walking out at the end.  Thank you for your time.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Sounds great but simply not pratical. For example, 135 has 6 kids all evenly matched; Brown, Davis, Sloan, Miller, Barton, Poulton ( no particular order). Sloan hasn't wrestled any of the other 5, therefore, how could he be fairly seeded? 119 has 3 kids, Martin, Zarth, Carr all evenly matched. 125 is the same with many kids capable of winning. None of them should be ranked above the other, IMO. If the state were going to start seeding, they would have to seed all weights, not just selected weights such as 103 where two dominant wrestlers are present.

One way to decrease the likelihood of 2 dominant kids on the same side is to switch back to district and regionals. One would double their chances of meeting the dominant wrestler in the regions thereby allowing them to split at state. This won't happen due to the financial aspects of renting the convention center, a 32 man bracket with lots of paying parents is needed.

Sorry Ranger, I hope I didn't steal any thunder. Your opinion may be different than mine.

[ccbcdeke 43]

I don't think it would be too difficult to seed the eight region winners.  If a highly ranked wrestler is not the region winner then he will be on the opposite side of his regions winner anyway. 

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

How would you rank 135? Be specific.

[grapplehed 8]

We go through this every year and we come up with the same solution.  However, I think this will work and it has been brought up at the coaches meeting a few years ago when they got this knuckle head idea of having a 32 man bracket.

Hold 4 state seeding tournaments throughout the season, demographically located.  If you want to be considered a seed you must attend at least one of the four tournaments.  This will take care of head to head and common opponent in the realm of criteria.  For ex: you could make the Dragon and the WCI two of the four tournaments a "seeder".  other criteria,  returning state champ, placer or current region champ.  It can be done.  

The other thing I think should be done is the region power rankings giving wild cards to the state tournament.  This is accomplished by the number of returning placewinners in a given weight class.  For ex: If region 15 has the most returning placewinners than any other region, they will get X# of wildcards.  and 2nd most gets x# of wildcards.  The region will determine what weight classes gets the wildcards.  Who will represent the region most effectively.  Yes this will create rat tails but you stand a chance of getting better kids at the state tournament without penalizing the weaker regions.

[grapplehed 8]

Actually you must compete in at least 2 of the 4, this should cover the crossover. Either way, work out the bugs and it should be ok.

[grappler-of-old 44]

I don't think it would be too difficult to seed the eight region winners.  If a highly ranked wrestler is not the region winner then he will be on the opposite side of his regions winner anyway. 

Here is the problem.  There is no rankings in KHSAA wrestling.  No disrespect to ranger I think he does a great job, but they are not official, nor is their an unbiased formula to find out who is the top wrestler.

If you asked 10 people the top wrestlers you would probably get 10 different answers in each wt. class.  

IPEA has it correct.  If we had another tourney in between region and state and had a 16 man bracket with only 4 champions it would increase the chances of the best two meeting in the finals.

(OH WHERE OH WHERE HAS MY SPELL CHECK GONE, OH WHERE OH WHERE CAN IT BE)

[grappler-of-old 44]

Actually you must compete in at least 2 of the 4, this should cover the crossover. Either way, work out the bugs and it should be ok.

You cannot expect teams to attend certain tourneys.  There are a few times when a small team has an exceptional kid on their team, but the rest of the team is weak.  Why would these coaches send theri team to one of these tourneys?  Most of these teams also only have one coach and could not split them.  You also have tourney costs and travel costs. 

[grapplehed 8]

I would agree, but $$$ makes that hairbrained decision.  

32 man bracket does 3 things  

1. brings in the cash

2. lets below average wrestlers qualify, thus bringing down the integrity of the state tournament, I believe there are qualifiers there that wouldn't place in the middle school tournament.  

3. lets stronger regions have shot at the title (more qualifiers)

[grapplehed 8]

Grappler of Old,

Yes you can make them attend certain tourneys, make it procedure.  It doesn't have to be a stand alone tourney.  You could take the team, good or not.  Make the Dragon a "seeder" and WCI and a couple of others.  Not a big deal.  Christian Co.  State Duals.  Raider Rumble.

[ccbcdeke 43]

How would you rank 135? Be specific.

The eight region winners at 135 lbs are (in order of rangers rankings):

1 Matt Miller

2 Dusty Brown

3 Zach Poulton

4 Justin Davis

5 Matt Slone

6 Luke Ervin

7 Cody Guiler

8 Rashaun Graham

only seed the region winners, then everyone else falls into place using the standard draw. 

If you asked 10 people the top wrestlers you would probably get 10 different answers in each wt. class.  

Are you telling me that 10 people couldn't come to an agreement as to which wrestler should be seeded 1st - 8th out of 8 kids? :?

[grappler-of-old 44]

There is no way yoy can make a regular season tournament a requirement.  Why should Ryle, South Oldham, Woodford Co., and Christian Co. get to hold these tourneys?  I know they are established tourneys, but if you want a "seeder" tourney then it would need to be a revolving tourney much like the region already is.  

I still don't see a coach sending their team if they are weak to one of these tourneys just for one kid.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Grapplehead, How would you factor in the weight descent plan. If a stud is planning to go to a certain weight but isn't allowed until after the 4 tournaments have been completed, how would you factor in that situation? Several kids don't make weight until the very end of the season, often times these are the very competitive wrestlers.

The other solution is go back to 3 qualifying tournaments like the old days, district then regions then semi-state. Only the top 8 would attend the one day state meet. Chances are much better the studs would be separate.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

The eight region winners at 135 lbs are (in order of rangers rankings):

1 Matt Miller

2 Dusty Brown

3 Zach Poulton

4 Justin Davis

5 Matt Slone

6 Luke Ervin

7 Cody Guiler

8 Rashaun Graham

only seed the region winners, then everyone else falls into place using the standard draw.  Are you telling me that 10 people couldn't come to an agreement as to which wrestler should be seeded 1st - 8th out of 8 kids? :?

Miller is undefeated at 135 as is Sloan but you have them on the same side of the bracket. So, the only 2 undefeated guys, or objective studs by record, are on the same side. Not quite fair the way I see it.

[ccbcdeke 43]

Miller is undefeated at 135 as is Sloan but you have them on the same side of the bracket. So, the only 2 undefeated guys, or objective studs by record, are on the same side. Not quite fair the way I see it.

I said that it was in order of rangers rankings.  Use that as a starting point to make your argument.  that is the kind of information that would be presented at a seeding meeting.  Based on that info they might make Sloan 1 and Miller 2. I don't know.  I don't have a dog in that fight.  My teams 135 placed 2nd, he would fall into place according to the standard draw based on the seeding that our number 1 guy gets, even though he is ranked 7th (according to Ranger).  Three of the region winners are ranked below him, but he still doesn't get seeded because he didn't win the region.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

I don't have a dog either, I am just arguing for the hell of it. I am just trying to illustrate the difficulties in one weight group, just imagine doing all 14 with emotional coaches present. Why should Sloan get the number 1 or 2 spot when he never wrestled any of the other top 5 kids? Sure he is undefeated, but maybe he would lose to all of the top 5 guys??? Another example would be 119. No way would I want to decide the number one and two between Martin, Zarth and Carr. I don't like the random draw but I dont like paying taxes either.  I just don't see a practical way around it. No one has addressed the weight descent issue.

I also heard Ranger can be bought for the right price! 

[grapplehed 8]

I pinned em all,

shouldn't you be at work? 

Grappler,  I was giving examples of established tournaments, they just happen to be the biggest tournaments.  Think about it most of the teams go to one, some or all of these tournaments.  They are going anyway regardless if their team sucks or not.  There are a bunch of crappy teams at WCI and South.  If they aren't there for the seed who cares.

I haven't tackled the weight problem yet. Although all of the tourneys listed were after xmas.  If he isn't down to weight by then, he shouldn't wrestle or be on a losing football team so he can start sooner.

I am just throwing options out there, thats why we are debating it. 

The state will like this idea about as much as they like the 1 day 8 man bracket.  Great competition, but no $. 

By the way, I love to pay taxes IPEA.  I can't wait for Election time.  Does anyone want to buy my house, I won't be able to afford anything else.

[grapplehed 8]

On a side note, the NCAA has a comittee for seeding.  Coaches are not involved.  So if you took the top 8 region champs and seeded them, it would be done by comittee not coaches.  Meeting would be short and to the point, no arguement because they would not be there. 

However, we are in KY.  I am the Boar's Nest would have something to do with comittee selection.

[hawkeye 0]

My vote would be to restablish districts, regions, and state.  Then the 16 man bracket is back.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

I am working, I just take alot of breaks.

Seeding is impossible. Random draw is fair, afterall it is random. We all know, anyone can beat anyone during the state meet. Undefeated number ones fall all of the time. Seeding will not decide the state champ, it will only determine 2nd and 3rd place.

[ccbcdeke 43]

Seeding will not decide the state champ, it will only determine 2nd and 3rd place.

nice quote, can I stea..I mean use that.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

Another example, look at the clowns arguing about the Middle School state championship and suggesting Larue County is cheating. Absurd! Can you imagine the cheating alligations which would occur if seeding criteria were developed.

[I-pinned-em-all 0]

nice quote, can I stea..I mean use that.

You can use that quote, however, you must always reference me when using it!

[grapplehed 8]

That is a good quote.  As I mentioned before, we argue this every year and never get anywhere like now.  I just wasted my own time. 

[ccbcdeke 43]

Another example, look at the clowns arguing about the Middle School state championship and suggesting Larue County is cheating. Absurd! Can you imagine the cheating alligations which would occur if seeding criteria were developed.

Like somebody else said, have a seeding committee

So if you took the top 8 region champs and seeded them, it would be done by comittee not coaches.  Meeting would be short and to the point, no arguement because they would not be there.