State Duals

[Guest cmccoy]

Thank you. We did make mistakes that no one really saw or was aware of and we do know how to fix them for next year. I was a coach that was present that did not get to vote. I do however feel like it was done fairly and not just one person making the decision. I would have done a blind draw due to the growing succees of KY wrestling and how tough it could get to seed the tournament period.

[HWT 4]

Ok, either way, the only problem is woodford couldnt place second ( im guessing thats the big complaint). First of all they lost to larue, whether it be early in the day or later, they would have lost anyway, second they lost to trinity, therefore a runner up state duals title is still out of the question for woodford. Im not taking anything away from their program but a loss is a loss. Deal with it, work hard next year to win your pool, thats all that can be said!!!

[Ranger123 43]

Ok, either way, the only problem is woodford couldnt place second ( im guessing thats the big complaint). First of all they lost to larue, whether it be early in the day or later, they would have lost anyway, second they lost to trinity, therefore a runner up state duals title is still out of the question for woodford. Im not taking anything away from their program but a loss is a loss. Deal with it, work hard next year to win your pool, thats all that can be said!!!

I'm not making the argument from Woodford's perspective at all.  I couldn't care less if they finished 2nd or 16th.  I'm probably arguing more from Trinity and Unions perpective.  If you put Union in the pool with Dunbar or Seneca they would likely have finished in the top 8.

PintoWin, I still think you give every region the chance to send 2 teams and allow Henry Clay to take a wild card for hosting.  But I wouldn't guarantee anyone a #1 just for being the top team out of their region.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Here is the one thing that most of you are missing.

If you have ever been in a regional seeding meeting you know it takes hours to complete.  This is why they do it the day before or eirlier in the week.

Can you imagine how long it would take to figure out the top 8 seeds at the state duals?  Let alon etry to seed all 16. 

If you took 1 team from every region then you could run an 8 man bracket (no 5 match rule would occur)

If you ran a 16 man bracket then the 5 match rule comes into effect.  You would need to have a 2 day tourney.  I think this would cause even more schools to back out because of cost.

The only true fair way IMO is a blind draw like they have at the state tourney.  Have all the possibilities already made up and pick a blind bracket. 

Example.

pool 1                       

Region 1 (1)

Region 2 (1)

Regon 3 (2)

Region 4 (2)

Pool 2

Region 5 (1)

Region 6 (1)

Region 7 (2)

Region 8 (2)

Pool 3

Region 3 (1)

Region 4 (1)

REgion 5 (2)

Region 6 (2)

Pool 4

Region 7 (1)

Region 8 (1)

REgion 1 (2)

Region 2 (2)

There are many other possibilities. Draw them all out label them and randomly choose one each year.

[Ranger123 43]

Here is the one thing that most of you are missing.

If you have ever been in a regional seeding meeting you know it takes hours to complete.  This is why they do it the day before or eirlier in the week.

Can you imagine how long it would take to figure out the top 8 seeds at the state duals?   Let alon etry to seed all 16. 

If you took 1 team from every region then you could run an 8 man bracket (no 5 match rule would occur)

If you ran a 16 man bracket then the 5 match rule comes into effect.  You would need to have a 2 day tourney.  I think this would cause even more schools to back out because of cost.

The only true fair way IMO is a blind draw like they have at the state tourney.  Have all the possibilities already made up and pick a blind bracket. 

Example.

pool 1                       

Region 1 (1)

Region 2 (1)

Regon 3 (2)

Region 4 (2)

Pool 2

Region 5 (1)

Region 6 (1)

Region 7 (2)

Region 8 (2)

Pool 3

Region 3 (1)

Region 4 (1)

REgion 5 (2)

Region 6 (2)

Pool 4

Region 7 (1)

Region 8 (1)

REgion 1 (2)

Region 2 (2)

There are many other possibilities. Draw them all out label them and randomly choose one each year.

How do you handle the wild cards?  Are they put into the spots of the teams that dropped?  What about years when no teams come from a specific region (3)?  Does that mean a wildcard gets a #1 spot?  Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I still think seeding can be done.

[dogpile 0]

But I bet if you put Larue in a pool with Seneca, Trinity, and Woodford and assuming they survived that meatgrinder they had to face Dunbar and North Hardin in the semis and finals.  And those teams wrestled against PRP, Harrison, Henry Clay, Sheldon Clark, North Oldham, and Campbell to advance.  I think Larue would probably struggle a bit and likely not win the title that they deserved.  I'm just saying with a little effort it can be a lot more evenly distributed.

I agree that a pool compiled of Larue, Seneca, Trinity, and Woodford would have been a beast, but it didn't exist!  And I do not believe a pool that rough will exist as the coaches have agreed to seed the top 4-6. 

I also disagree with everyone making out that pool 1 was sooo rough.  Pool 1 placed 1st, 6th, tie 11th, and tie 13th.  Pool 2 placed 4th, 7th, tie 11th, and tie 15th (probably the weakest), Pool 3 placed 2nd, 8th, tie 9th, tie 15th, Pool 4 placed 3rd, 5th, tie 9th, tie 13th.

Overall, this is fairly even.  I would say pool 1 and 4 were the toughest, but not by much as P1 = (1+6+11+13)/4 = 7.75, P2 = (4+7+11+15)/4 = 9.25, P3 = (2+8+9+15)/4 = 8.5, P4 = (3+5+9+13)/4 = 7.5.  This shows that Pool 4 was the toughest, followed by pool 1, then pool 3, then pool 2.

This leads me to the teams you called out:  PRP was in P4 (toughest), Harrison was in P1 (2nd toughest), and both North Oldham and Sheldon Clark were in P3 (third toughest - which, with 2 of the teams you listed, you would think it would rank lower unless they are not as bad as you make out.)

[Ranger123 43]

I agree that a pool compiled of Larue, Seneca, Trinity, and Woodford would have been a beast, but it didn't exist!  And I do not believe a pool that rough will exist as the coaches have agreed to seed the top 4-6. 

I also disagree with everyone making out that pool 1 was sooo rough.  Pool 1 placed 1st, 6th, tie 11th, and tie 13th.  Pool 2 placed 4th, 7th, tie 11th, and tie 15th (probably the weakest), Pool 3 placed 2nd, 8th, tie 9th, tie 15th, Pool 4 placed 3rd, 5th, tie 9th, tie 13th.

Overall, this is fairly even.  I would say pool 1 and 4 were the toughest, but not by much as P1 = (1+6+11+13)/4 = 7.75, P2 = (4+7+11+15)/4 = 9.25, P3 = (2+8+9+15)/4 = 8.5, P4 = (3+5+9+13)/4 = 7.5.   This shows that Pool 4 was the toughest, followed by pool 1, then pool 3, then pool 2.

This leads me to the teams you called out:  PRP was in P4 (toughest), Harrison was in P1 (2nd toughest), and both North Oldham and Sheldon Clark were in P3 (third toughest - which, with 2 of the teams you listed, you would think it would rank lower unless they are not as bad as you make out.)

First, I "called out" teams from every pool.  I wasn't picking on one pool.  My point was that if you only seed the top 4, then a random draw could have placed any #1 with PRP, Henry Clay, and Sheldon Clark.  And another #1 with Trinity, Union, and Woodford.  Not exactly fair when you have to continue to advance through a long day of wrestling.  No it isn't likely to happen, but it could, especially in a year like this with so many really good teams.  And just because something isn't likely to happen doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for it and try to prevent it.  If none of the coaches are concerned about it then by all means let's quit debating.  But I guarantee the first time it happens and it hurts one of the coaches "in power" then we will see it change.

[dogpile 0]

First, I "called out" teams from every pool.  I wasn't picking on one pool.  My point was that if you only seed the top 4, then a random draw could have placed any #1 with PRP, Henry Clay, and Sheldon Clark.  And another #1 with Trinity, Union, and Woodford.  Not exactly fair when you have to continue to advance through a long day of wrestling.  No it isn't likely to happen, but it could, especially in a year like this with so many really good teams.  And just because something isn't likely to happen doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for it and try to prevent it.  If none of the coaches are concerned about it then by all means let's quit debating.  But I guarantee the first time it happens and it hurts one of the coaches "in power" then we will see it change.

You called out the teams, that in your great and wise opinion, are poor.  Some showed to be quite tough.  As you keep promoting Union, but Union was not one of the top teams at state duals due to their illness.  I wouldn't doubt North Oldham (a team that you called out) which tied for 9th with Union could have beat Union on that day.  Sure, Union when healthy would most likely beat North Oldham, but not on that day.  Also, Paul Dunbar got second (course you believe that to be because they got an easier pool, but they did beat Woodford on the road to state duals) and only beat the North Oldham team 43 to 26 with North Oldham forfeiting 3 weights against them.  That is only 17 points and they were given 18. 

All I am saying is don't call out teams.  Every team that went to state duals was a good team that was trying to get better by getting good competition.  No, I don't think this way of seeding will cause a problem.  I don't think Woodford is sweating it as they knew it could go against them when they voted the way they did.  The coaches do not need to be in the meeting for 2 or more hours trying to seed the bracket.  Top four will do just fine.  The team that shows up that day will prevail anyway.

[EMS Coach Cardwell 17]

I know that this issue has been dead for a while, but I have been away so I couldn't put my 2 cents in until now. This so called vote that was taken, was also said to go in effect next year. I thought the coaches agreed that we couldn't change a standing rule (seeding the tourn.) the day of the duals. Everyone got so wrapped up in the idea to not seed this thing that they forgot what they had previously said. The state duals has to be seeded and ran like a 16 man bracket with the wrestle backs if people really want to see a true tourn. I know this also causes the five match rule to be in affect, but that's a totally different subject. All I'm saying is if a kid loses the first round of the state tourn. and wrestles all the way back through the conso's, doesn't he still get to wrestle for third? Of course he does, because he earned it, this same idea needs to be understood for the state duals. This isn't sour grapes about how Woodford did or any other team for that matter, it is about having "true" thirds and fifths and sevenths and so on and so on and so on. Ok, my face is blue, so I'll stop now. Just think about it, Ok?

[Guest wrestler92]

It's kinda hard to determine the hardest pool based on taking the placements and dividing them out by the number of teams in the pool.  If the best the 2nd place team in the pool can do is 5th then it automatically pulls the pool down even if they could beat the other top teams in the other pools, so it doesn't measure the toughness of the pools only the average placement of the poos which really means nothing.  the amount of time spent in the seeding meetings throughout the year just seed all the teams that are going to be there and spread them out that way.1-4, 5-8. 9-12,etc.  That way the teams would come out like the "are supposed to" according to numbers.