KentuckyWrestling.com HS Rankings - 2006/2007 December 20

[Broke Back Wrestler 0]

There is an obvious need for a system and I think this system is fine-I just wanted to point out that the questions are understandable...and I do not want anyone to feel bad for asking questions. 

It just seems the same teams keep asking the same questions.  I understand they think they should be higher but there not.  And there is a logical explanation to why they are not, and Ranger has explained it many times.

[wrest65 0]

You could look at it that way-but as I said as the season progresses there are scenarios that seem to lead to legitimate questions of the system.  Plus for some teams that are not the "powerhouse" teams it is very important to be taken seriously.  There is allot of talk about weak regions etc. and when you have kids going to practice and working hard everyday and not always having the success of the bigger programs the validation of the rankings is meaningful.

But you're right the same questions can get tiresome...but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Broke Back Wrestler 0]

I apologize if I was harsh.  I understand what your saying about Region 3.  Region 3 has traditionally been the weakest region, but that is quickly starting to change.  They still have a little bit to go, but over the past couple of years they've closed the gap a considerable amount. 

[bulldog-leader 56]

You could look at it that way-but as I said as the season progresses there are scenarios that seem to lead to legitimate questions of the system.  Plus for some teams that are not the "powerhouse" teams it is very important to be taken seriously.  There is allot of talk about weak regions etc. and when you have kids going to practice and working hard everyday and not always having the success of the bigger programs the validation of the rankings is meaningful.

But you're right the same questions can get tiresome...but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Those that continue to ask the questions over and over seem to be paying too much attention to the rankings.

As a coach if a team members of mine were rattling on about where they are ranked or where the team is ranked I would tell them to stop looking at the rankings.  Sometimes the rankings cause a distraction to those "want-a-be" wrestlers. 

A "want-a-be" wresler are. Those wrestlers that are good enough to place at every tourney and win a few, but don't have the name recognistion as others on more visable teams.

My advise to these type of wrestlers are

1.  To continue to work hard, you are doing something right. 

2.  Continue to place and win tourneys and

3.  By the end of the year when you are standing on the podium and the wrestlers that were ranked higher all year are sitting in the stands.  You will feel much more proud of yourself and your team.

[wrest65 0]

I think most of what you say is true - but of course people pay attention or there would not be rankings in any sport.  And they can be used as a tool for wrestlers who do not get to see or wrestle against some of these teams.  I know wrestlers that in tournaments that do not look ahead in the brackets and I know others who do - I think that it should be what works for each individual.  I think that no one should invest any real time in the rankings but at the same time I think this provides a forum to discuss other wrestlers and other teams and that is a positive.

[bulldog-leader 56]

Well, I'm from the good ole days when we rode dino's to wrestling tourneys.

Back then we had no rankings.  We went to state, and half the time did not know what school our opponent was from let alone his name or if he was any good. 

I also do not coach to compete against a particular person.  We drill and practice moves until we get them as close to perfect as we can.  Then take our A game against our opponent. 

I don't look at opponents films, heck we don't even have the luxury of taping our own team and critique ourselves let alone another teams tendencies.  But once again I'm stuck in the Flinstone Era. :-D

And I do agree that it is good to see what wt. wrestlers are going and what he has done.  It's more for the fans and parents than for the wrestlers though.

[ridge45 0]

I think that PRP should be moved up or Laff. should be moved down. When we wrestled a dual against them we beat them 52-28. It was was a pretty solid victory.

[salt140 0]

215

Bal  Naveed Safi  11

he moved to cali last year.

[Josh_Claywell 52]

Lowsingle, who would you move out of the top 13 to move Harrison up? Those 13 teams ahead of Harrison are pretty good...

[Lowsingle 9]

Lowsingle, who would you move out of the top 13 to move Harrison up? Those 13 teams ahead of Harrison are pretty good...

Probably McCreary

[shipp51 0]

Does anyone know if Jordan Whiting has wrestled yet this season?

[rockfan 1]

shipp he beat central in a duel >He has a hurt finger ,but maybe you will see him saturday?

[shipp51 0]

If hes wrestling then i will. we duel trinity

[Ranger123 43]

I know that the team rankings are often the most questioned part of my rankings.  So for the benefit of those who don't understand and haven't heard this example, I will give a replay.  The best example I have seen of the difference in duals and the state tournament is Lawrence County from 2005.  They probably lost every dual meet that season.  And they only sent 3 kids to state, with 2 winning matches.  BUT, they finished #23 as a team because those 2 kids (Jarius and Jacob Murton) dominated their weight classes on the way to state titles.  Great individuals can carry a team at the state tournament.  Not likely to a team title, but they can score a lot of points.

[Happy Pappy 0]

Which is really why we need to 1. Sanction the duals as the team title (just like Indiana) and 2. Not even keep team scores at Frankfort (just like Indiana). Let's face it, Lawrence County in '05 is the perfect example, two kids pilling up a bunch of team points because they both win. Lawrence Co.  wasn't at the state duals because they did not qualify (great disparity). I will say that more often than not, the state duals winner usually wins the state tournament especially those loaded teams like Woodford, South Oldham (a couple of years ago) and Campbell (a couple of years ago). But what you don't see reflected at Frankfort is an accurate accounting of how good a "team" really is in a head's up scenario against another team (matchups...etc...), so aside from those loaded teams winning, everything from second through last may not be truly representative of actual team placement since the rewarding of points is directly related to the performance of the individual. I just think that sanctioning state duals and putting the right teams in there to battle for the title would bring even more excitement to the sport and give "teams" a chance to earn a state title that perhaps they stand no chance of winning in Frankfort. Now (after that sermon), we'll pass the plate and you can give whatever you feel lead to give. Thank you very much and have a nice day!

[grappler-of-old 44]

Which is really why we need to 1. Sanction the duals as the team title (just like Indiana) and 2. Not even keep team scores at Frankfort (just like Indiana).

1.  The state and coaches association do not want the state to take this event over.  Many teams don't attend the state duals for many reasons and do not want to be forced to attend.

2.  How would the teams not in the state duals know where they stand?  Teams like Lawrence Co. would not know how well their team did, if points were not tallied.

[Happy Pappy 0]

I understand what you're saying, I'm just giving my personal take on the issue. To me, the gulf between duals and individual tournaments is very wide and I think that perhaps the greatest example of the gap is in the scoring itself, which to me gives cause to seperate the two. What I mean is this: the most points an individual can score for his team in any one dual is 6 (assuming a pin only and no awarding of penalty points) whereas in an individual tournament, that one wrestler can pile 'em up if he makes it to the finals and wins (16 alone I believe in the state finals). I believe the "sport" itself has more or less dictated the gap between the two types of tournaments and has (intentionally or not) created "parity" by developing this gap. Rather than ignore this, I would like to see Kentucky grasp this fact and exploit it to the fullest. I understand that we've got teams who have "reasons" for not going to state duals and I also understand that the format in some regions is not condusive to really establishing who the top teams in each region are, especially Region 8 who has probably the greatest travel restrictions due to the large area involved; however, as the sport continues to grow and more teams hopefully come in, I would personlly like this to at least be a goal to strive for. Maybe we can take a lesson from the Middle Schools who (I belive) are making state duals a bigger priority than the high schools. If they indeed are, then those kids are going to go to high school with a different perspective on state duals than some of the status quo who seem to me to be very inept at making any changes in anything that would "rock the boat" so to speak. I surely do not want to digress into my personl opinions about the KHSAA and the KWCA on this board at this time anyway, I'll just gripe to my bride about those since she's a better listener.   

[Guest wrestler92]

The biggest problem with that is you are just catering to the big schools who stand a chance to win state every year and don't give a team with 3-4 good kids who are going to place in state a chance at saying they are the Nth best team in the state if you don't award points in the state tournament.  So that means every year the "winner" for the state duals is going to be one of probably 4-5 teams and no other teams are going to get recognition at the end of the year for what 4-5 really good individuals can do. 

[All_About_Wrestling 0]

wrestler92, they are talking about State Duals, not State tournament. Ranger123, keep up the good work. just one question though. why is north moving down in the rankings when you have added even more north wrestlers to the ranking? Also I'm looking forward to the Central duals this weekend, I heard that Union co. and Trinity both want us for a dual. Sound like a great day of wrestling.

[grappler-of-old 44]

The biggest problem with that is you are just catering to the big schools who stand a chance to win state every year and don't give a team with 3-4 good kids who are going to place in state a chance at saying they are the Nth best team in the state if you don't award points in the state tournament.  So that means every year the "winner" for the state duals is going to be one of probably 4-5 teams and no other teams are going to get recognition at the end of the year for what 4-5 really good individuals can do. 

    Wrestler92 you said this much better than I did.  One of the problems in the state is that the small schools are having trouble competing with the large schools.  (When I say small schools I'm talking abou the teams with a small number of participants along with actuall school size). 

    These school have trouble finding tourneys they can attend, (because schools want teams with full teams at thier toureny), and have trouble having dual meets, (its hard to have a dual when you only have 5-7 kids on the team).

    The only way to create excitement at these schools and draw attention to them is for them to place high at the state tourney as a team.  If the coach can take a top 10 or top 25 placement at the state tourney back to their school, then the school is more likely to give them more support.  Whereas if this team takes 5 kids to the state tourney and there is no placement, there is no fanfare in the school. 

[Guest wrestler92]

wrestler92, they are talking about State Duals, not State tournament. Ranger123, keep up the good work. just one question though. why is north moving down in the rankings when you have added even more north wrestlers to the ranking? Also I'm looking forward to the Central duals this weekend, I heard that Union co. and Trinity both want us for a dual. Sound like a great day of wrestling.

Well apparently you haven't been paying attention to the whole thread, the debate was between the state tournament and the state duals, not just the state duals.  Ranger123 is doing a good job I was just trying to clarify the situation so that maybe everyone would understand what was being talked about, I guess it didn't work if you didnt' understand it.

[Guest Laterial Queen]

I agree somewhat on Seeders.  But I decided with this new weight thing that I wasn't going to chase guys and their weight early in the season.  Once the weight changes then I will start taking a closer look at where guys are wrestling.

Phillips is up there because of the win against Allman.  Not sure if he caught him or what (I think Allman came back the next week and really spanked Phillips).  Didn't catch the head-to-head loss to Durden.  Will note it.

Phillips did not lose to durden. it was the central scrimmage. Phillips won 5-3. the situation was on the central coach. he was the ref. and Phillips was not awarded his near fall at the end of the match. then Phillips and durden went into OT. and durden took Phillips down. that is the mistake everyone has been making. thought i would clear that up. yes Phillips did get beat by allman. 16-1 i think he was drained after that close match with seeders i believe that was 9-5

[Cmlswrstlng 0]

That's not what I here.  Why would he do that anyway?  To wrestle Peace?  Probably not the best plan.  The weight goes to 137 next week.

He said that he was just tired of cutting weight and quite frankly after he lost to Brown i think he felt like he didnt have much of a reason for staying at 135

[hawkeyeof old 0]

a question i see the new rankings are out and you should get a lot of praise for your time and effort because you do a very good job  and with that said i dont understand some of your  weights orders of #1 thru the top ten  some kids havent even wrestled yet this season and they stay in the top 10 witch i think the kids in the top ten that are wrestling and that have you have put there should move in front of the kids that are not even on the mat. not that (veech-lewis-luna and if we look i am shure there my be a few more that we are missing should and would be ranked in the top ten easyly but they need to be wrestling. and then what about the kids that hit a little road block and had one or two bad matchs be for x-mas and they still remain at the top of thier weught when there may be kids below them who they lost to or have not wresteld yet with a better record or still remain unbeaton and have wrestled several of the top ranked kids already and beat them and some good  out of state kids as well (just a few zeppa beat chue-butler beat ashbrook last week and i do understand that ashbrook beat him the first but that score was 5-4 or something like that and then butler beats him 4-0 so witch one is better? i know you can only go with what you get back from the wrestling community and that makes it tough  heres an idea why not use the same formula that we use for seeding at tourneys then see how much if any some of the weights would change it would be interesting to see    AS I SAID YOU DO GREAT JOB JUST STIRING THE POT            MERRY CHRISMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR

[grappler-of-old 44]

Hakeyeofold;

    I was just wondering what that criteria for seeding would be.  Most of the time at the important tounerys, District (when we still had them) and now Region.  It is the coaches argue it out with little or no criteria that they obide by. 

    Are you insinuating that Banks should move down the list?  He is out with a broken hand (or something).  With the exception of maybe Cooper no-one has earned the right to move above him, he earned that spot last year.

    When kids have split it comes down to opinion.  5-4 or 4-0 are both minor decisions.  Just because one defeated the other by more points does not make him better.  ie: What would happen if Butler had gotten pinned by Phillips (I use him becaue he is at the bottom of the llist) and the next time Butler defeats him 10-0.  Should Phillips still be ranked above him?

    I am not a huge fan of rankings but I know that using seeding criteria would be almost imposible.  1st and formost you need the records of these kids.  How is Ranger ever going to be able to do this???