Weight classes and weigh ins in youth wrestling

[Chris Duke 284]

My solution to everything is move to 16 man brackets using 10%, place the top 6, and demand every region weigh in with a verified official.

 

I talked to your brother today about what I think would make a our tournament great for everyone.  It has a 16 man bracket for kids that qualify and 8 man novice brackets for kids that do not qualify.  It still gives all the kids a chance to enjoy our tournament.  With any luck he will be able to add to this.  The kids that qualify will be in a set weight class and have to make weight.  We will be able to run 10% in all the 8 man brackets.

 

We have 4 qualifiers in different regions on different weekends.  If you do not qualify in one area this will give you three other chances to qualify.  This will not only make our state tournament tougher it will also make these 4 tournaments tougher.  The only kicker is that these 4 tournaments will have to set weight classes and be closed to out of state kids.

[raidercoach 51]

I talked to your brother today about what I think would make a our tournament great for everyone. It has a 16 man bracket for kids that qualify and 8 man novice brackets for kids that do not qualify. It still gives all the kids a chance to enjoy our tournament. With any luck he will be able to add to this. The kids that qualify will be in a set weight class and have to make weight. We will be able to run 10% in all the 8 man brackets.

We have 4 qualifiers in different regions on different weekends. If you do not qualify in one area this will give you three other chances to qualify. This will not only make our state tournament tougher it will also make these 4 tournaments tougher. The only kicker is that these 4 tournaments will have to set weight classes and be closed to out of state kids.

I like the idea of creating a novice and elite division. The idea around the 4 tournaments as a qualifier is about the only way you could do it....no way using the current regional tournaments would work. Preventing out of state competition would eliminate the Rumble as a qualifier, since over half the kids there are out of state. Many of the Louisville tournaments have kids from Indiana also.

[J.W. 21]

I like the idea, but dont necessarily think you would have to close the out of state or not use the rumble.

Out of state cant qualify, but no qualification points earned for out of atate spot.

Run the 4 or 6 or 8 tournaments and utilize a points system that creates a top 16 ranking for each designated classes.

Seems like something worth trying.

[JDamron 4]

I am sorry. I don't want to sound like a butthole here. I am a rookie on these forums. But what exactly is wrong with the way it is done now? Are we just trying to make the state tournament tougher? Do we have a huge problem with kids wrestling out of weight classes? Not sure what problem we are trying to address by running 16 man brackets. I don't think any of these kids care if they won state by winning a 8 man bracket, a 16 man bracket, or a 64 man bracket. I think it is pretty cool to have so many state champs and so many state place winners. I think it really encourages the kids to continue wrestling if the go to state and place. Then coaches and parents can really make big deal about a kid doing so good at the state tournament. Again, the kids don't care they were in a 8 man bracket. Anyway, would like to get a clearer idea of what EXACTLY is the problem we are trying to solve by moving away from the way it is done now. The way we are doing it now, at least in my mind, really promotes youth wrestling in this state.

[Bluesdad 73]

JD IMO the problem is we don't have true state champions for the youth like other states and the weight is being over blown in some cases. Some of the kids in Kentucky that win youth state couldn't go to open youth tourneys in OH or WV and even place in them. Are youth tournament needs to be addressed so our youth kids will get to be better wrestlers.

[MLee 68]

JD IMO the problem is we don't have true state champions for the youth like other states and the weight is being over blown in some cases. Some of the kids in Kentucky that win youth state couldn't go to open youth tourneys in OH or WV and even place in them. Are youth tournament needs to be addressed so our youth kids will get to be better wrestlers.

I've watched some of our MS placers get handled in open youth tourneys in OH..a 4th placer this year go 0-2 in an above average class, a runner-up get beat regularly.  How would making bigger brackets and/or set weight classes change that?  Our kids get beat by OH or WV for many reasons: more experienced coaches, more established programs, more participants, etc.  Changing the format will not make our kids (as a whole) any better. 

[MLee 68]

I am sorry. I don't want to sound like a butthole here. I am a rookie on these forums. But what exactly is wrong with the way it is done now? Are we just trying to make the state tournament tougher? Do we have a huge problem with kids wrestling out of weight classes? Not sure what problem we are trying to address by running 16 man brackets. I don't think any of these kids care if they won state by winning a 8 man bracket, a 16 man bracket, or a 64 man bracket. I think it is pretty cool to have so many state champs and so many state place winners. I think it really encourages the kids to continue wrestling if the go to state and place. Then coaches and parents can really make big deal about a kid doing so good at the state tournament. Again, the kids don't care they were in a 8 man bracket. Anyway, would like to get a clearer idea of what EXACTLY is the problem we are trying to solve by moving away from the way it is done now. The way we are doing it now, at least in my mind, really promotes youth wrestling in this state.

I am with you.  I have no issues w/ handing out more medals to our youth kids.  If fierce competition is what you want, you'll have to go outside our state regardless of bracket size.  I don't care if you make 100 man brackets...we just don't have that many in-state elite kids. 

 

Also, after speaking to an OH youth coach yesterday at a tournament, I was reminded of what I hate about set weight classes at youth....weight cutting.  This coach told me how terrible it has gotten in OH.  No regulation, kids dropping 10 lbs., blah blah blah.  He was envious of our situation.  His exact words, "I wish we could press the reset button and start things over...but that will never happen in OH."   

[85mc 0]

this is the same thing discussed in the KENTUCKY NEEDS TO STEP IT UP post

[raidercoach 51]

I am sorry. I don't want to sound like a butthole here. I am a rookie on these forums. But what exactly is wrong with the way it is done now? Are we just trying to make the state tournament tougher? Do we have a huge problem with kids wrestling out of weight classes? Not sure what problem we are trying to address by running 16 man brackets. I don't think any of these kids care if they won state by winning a 8 man bracket, a 16 man bracket, or a 64 man bracket. I think it is pretty cool to have so many state champs and so many state place winners. I think it really encourages the kids to continue wrestling if the go to state and place. Then coaches and parents can really make big deal about a kid doing so good at the state tournament. Again, the kids don't care they were in a 8 man bracket. Anyway, would like to get a clearer idea of what EXACTLY is the problem we are trying to solve by moving away from the way it is done now. The way we are doing it now, at least in my mind, really promotes youth wrestling in this state.

 

You bring up a great point...all of the "proposed changes" are changes wanted by a select few adults, mostly parents of above average wrestlers who want stiffer competition and/or to be able to call their little Johnny a "true" state champion.  They are suggesting these changes for what they think is best for their kids who are probably fully committed to the sport by now.  It doesn't appear they are considering the kids and families who are just trying the sport out and debating whether or not to send their little Johnny into basketball next year.  I have NEVER heard a youth kid complain about the youth state tournament since we moved it to Frankfort.  In fact it has been quite the opposite, most kids and families love our state tournament the way it is now.  Yet, when you come on these boards, you would think it is the worst tournament in the country if you listen to a select few. 

 

JD IMO the problem is we don't have true state champions for the youth like other states and the weight is being over blown in some cases. Some of the kids in Kentucky that win youth state couldn't go to open youth tourneys in OH or WV and even place in them. Are youth tournament needs to be addressed so our youth kids will get to be better wrestlers.

 

If kids from our state want better competition, they are going to have to travel out-of-state to get it....just like our middle school and high school teams also have to to do.  Having state champions go to out-of-state tournaments and not place happens at our high school level as well.  I watched a 2X Kentucky high school state champion get beat by a one time Ohio state placer years ago.  This past year we had a 3X Kentucky high school state champion get TF'd by a kid that placed 5th in Ohio.  We've had high school wrestling in this state since the 1960's and we have only had youth wrestling for a little over 10 years!  It is going to take time until our elite can handle the elite from some of the more powerful wrestling states, if it ever happens.  Yet, it can be argued that wrestling in this state has never been better from the number of high school kids we have ranked nationally, the number of kids we have wrestling in college, to how our teams are competing against out-of-state competition.  Most of the kids we have wrestling in college right now started in our youth programs.  What we are doing is working to make our kids better wrestlers.    

[Chris Duke 284]

You bring up a great point...all of the "proposed changes" are changes wanted by a select few adults, mostly parents of above average wrestlers who want stiffer competition and/or to be able to call their little Johnny a "true" state champion.  They are suggesting these changes for what they think is best for their kids who are probably fully committed to the sport by now.  It doesn't appear they are considering the kids and families who are just trying the sport out and debating whether or not to send their little Johnny into basketball next year.  I have NEVER heard a youth kid complain about the youth state tournament since we moved it to Frankfort.  In fact it has been quite the opposite, most kids and families love our state tournament the way it is now.  Yet, when you come on these boards, you would think it is the worst tournament in the country if you listen to a select few. 

 

Are we talking growth?  If you change a little at our state tournament we can encourage more kids to stick with it.  If we separate the novice and advanced kids we maybe able to retain more kids in our youth programs.  What does little Johnny kid learn from going to a state tournament and going 0-2 getting pinned twice in the first period? 

 

IMO we have a nice tournament.  I'm just looking at ways to make it better.  The face offs are a must kids love it, The Arena is great.  It looks like the biggest complaint is weight classes and cutting weight.  

[raidercoach 51]

Are we talking growth?  If you change a little at our state tournament we can encourage more kids to stick with it.  If we separate the novice and advanced kids we maybe able to retain more kids in our youth programs.  What does little Johnny kid learn from going to a state tournament and going 0-2 getting pinned twice in the first period? 

 

IMO we have a nice tournament.  I'm just looking at ways to make it better.  The face offs are a must kids love it, The Arena is great.  It looks like the biggest complaint is weight classes and cutting weight.  

 

I don't think there is whole lot as an association we can do to make our kids "better" other than promote growth.  How does changing the format of our tournaments make an individual better?  Kids get better in the practice room and in the offseason.  The tournaments are just an event to let them display that improvement.  However, the more growth we have, the more competition kids will face which will drive our kids to get better.  The elite kids will always rise to the top and the more kids we have, the more elite kids we will have and the better they will be. 

 

Our goals as the youth assoication should be to drive growth through kid and family focused marketing, ensure the safety of the kids, and improve organization across the state.  When you claim you want to "make it better", who are you making it better for?  I don't think increasing the pressure on the kids with quailifying tournaments, weight classes, larger brackets, is better for youth kids...especially the really young ones.  The kids who have been around a few years that want more competition can wrestle up at middle school when they feel they are ready.  What we have now in this state is a really nice progression of competition.  At youth, it is still fun and competitive, but not too intense.  At middle, the competition and intensity increases significantly and likewise with high school. 

 

I understand the line gets blurry with some of our elite youth kids.  They show up at our youth tournament and smash 3 kids in no time and walk away without breaking a sweat.  They are probably too good to be competing at our youth tournaments and should spend more time wrestling up, if they choose.  The same could be said with our elite middle school kids and probably some of our high school kids.  I was talking with a friend of mine who coaches at Brecksville High School near Cleveland.  They have become a public school powerhouse and I was picking his brain about their youth program.  He said they have a large team, but they pick around 30 elite kids and they pretty much have nothing to do with Ohio youth events around that area.  They travel the country wrestling middle school tournaments when permitted or ultra competitive youth events.  We are far from having the level of wrestling they have in that area of the country, but the point is the same:  if you want more competition you need to step up and go get it.  Blaming the format of our tournament for our kids not getting "better" is both inaccurate and misguided.     

[J.W. 21]

I am going backoff a little on this specifically a i believe there is alot of truths to what raidercoach and mlee have said and no point have i ever said the tournament did not run smoothly and do believe that there is alot of lnog thankless hours put into the tournament.

My new proposal would be an optional system.

If there were 6 teams willing to run a tournament every other weekend utilizing weight classes and weighins, have them as open tournaments, out of state welcome, we could have a Kentucky Triple Crown Series. This still leaves 10 % invitationals for those that want, adds a series that may draw in some out of state comp bringing competition to us, have special awards for those that win 3 of the events, one of which has to be the last one. Make the date of this prior to the state tournament so it doea not deter away from that and the numbers that are needed for the arena. Still keeps within the league without hurting kentucky wrestling as a whole.

Is this something that would be considered and not deter from the association goals. If not, i will shut up til next year so me and the raiderscoach can continue our love / hate relationship.

[Bluesdad 73]

The raider guys are making my point for me !

[85mc 0]

even with set weights you could still do the 8 man brackets or round robins if you really think that`s best.

someone else mentioned the fact that even with the 10% rule you still have kids that will cut its not right but it happens.

so why are so many against set weight classes.

[raidercoach 51]

even with set weights you could still do the 8 man brackets or round robins if you really think that`s best.

someone else mentioned the fact that even with the 10% rule you still have kids that will cut its not right but it happens.

so why are so many against set weight classes.

Set weight classes encourages weight cutting, no way around it. The evidence is overwhelming that with 10%, kids don't cut weight. We have records of kids who wrestle tournaments with set weight classes and 10%, almost always the kids weigh more for the 10% which is all the proof you need that with 10% kids wrestle their natural weight.

For those kids/parents that claim to cut weight for 10% tournaments, there isn't much we can do for them. Cutting weight for a 10% tournament makes NO sense. Furthermore, I don't believe it happens. Could it happen? Sure, there are ignorant people everywhere. Does it happen? We have seen NO evidence that it does with 10% and have seen overwhelming evidence that it does with set weights. This is not up for debate. Aside from it being common sense, we have statistical data from kids who wrestle both middle school (with set weights) and youth (with 10%).

As an association, we have essentially systematically eliminated weight cutting from youth in our state via the 10% rule. Going back to set classes gives our kids the option to cut weight. Why give them that option when it appears 100% of people involved with youth wrestling think cutting weight is bad for the sport? I think it is irresponsible to allow it, not just for the kids that cut weight, but also for the kids that don't.

The raider guys are making my point for me !

What point is that?

[chadmack282 1]

weight classes at youth are a bad idea main;ly because of what parents do..  In the past few weeks training with hi level clubs in ohio u can see 5year kids that are thin allreddi cutting 2-  3 pounds it is rediculous.  2lbs may not b much but it is alot when u r 42lbs to begin. Keep it like it is. 

[Bluesdad 73]

That "most" Kentucky youth kids can't hang with the youth kids from surrounding states. Notice I said most there are the few that can. Are youth state tourney should be the major tourney these kids are working Hobson all year. But for the best youth kids it isn't that big of a deal theyd rather wrestle and win the TOC, Viper Pits, and battle for the belt(Barberton Oh) than their state championship.

[raidercoach 51]

That "most" Kentucky youth kids can't hang with the youth kids from surrounding states. Notice I said most there are the few that can. Are youth state tourney should be the major tourney these kids are working Hobson all year. But for the best youth kids it isn't that big of a deal theyd rather wrestle and win the TOC, Viper Pits, and battle for the belt(Barberton Oh) than their state championship.

The same could be said about our high school state tournament. There are many tournaments that teams from Kentucky attend during the year that are more difficult and/or prestigious than winning a Kentucky high school state title. The last I checked, we weigh our high school kids in and have set weight classes at high school state.  I don't see the connection to having weight classes and same day weigh ins to making a tournament tougher or a "bigger deal" to the elite kids you are referring to.  Now increasing the bracket size obviously makes it tougher. 

[Bluesdad 73]

We will agree to disagree I guess. I'm not saying you have to weight in the morning of just maybe the thursday or Friday before not a week or 2 prior to the tournament. Yes weight classes are by far the best way to go IMO not the 10% rule. Kentucky is the only state that Blue attends youth tournaments and they use the 10% rule. Make weight classes let the kids and their parents choose were they want to wrestle and slot them in there. Not this 10% gray area rule. This way you know the weights the kids are wrestling. But I guess it really doesn't matter. Blue will show up and wrestle regardless of the age and weight rules. I just can't see letting him miss his youth state championship tournament. But do I wish we had set weight classes and weigh ins? Of course as we all should if were not more concerned about the money.

[raidercoach 51]

We will agree to disagree I guess. I'm not saying you have to weight in the morning of just maybe the thursday or Friday before not a week or 2 prior to the tournament. Yes weight classes are by far the best way to go IMO not the 10% rule. Kentucky is the only state that Blue attends youth tournaments and they use the 10% rule. Make weight classes let the kids and their parents choose were they want to wrestle and slot them in there. Not this 10% gray area rule. This way you know the weights the kids are wrestling. But I guess it really doesn't matter. Blue will show up and wrestle regardless of the age and weight rules. I just can't see letting him miss his youth state championship tournament. But do I wish we had set weight classes and weigh ins? Of course as we all should if were not more concerned about the money.

"Let the kid and their parents choose where they want to wrestle and slot them in there"....this is exactly the problem. Blue is how old? Kids his age should touch a scale at his NATURAL weight and go wrestle against other kids at their NATURAL weight. A parent or a coach should have nothing to do with what weight class he should wrestle. This is EXACTLY the mindset 10% protects against.

Just because you compete at some tournaments in SE Ohio and WV that use set weights doesn't make it more competitive or better. I assure you Blue would have his hand full winning most of the tournaments we attend in Cincinnati that do use 10%. We had a middle school runner-up on our youth team at Blue's weight, that didn't win a single youth tournament across the river and went 0-2 in at least one of them. Our kid is a stud, but its a different world over there, regardless of 10% or set weight classes.

Your comment about the money is WAY off base. We could move to weight classes tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the income generated at state. I promise you our motivation isn't money. We'd rather not have been involved with the state tournament this year. The money raised was surprisingly good this year, but we don't need money for our program. We do other things to finance the club and we are in good shape.

[sbfraz 8]

The biggest issue I have is with the lack of weigh ins. No matter what anyone likes to think, kids do cut weight with the 10% rule. When they are weighing 7-14 days before a tourney, many kids cut for the weigh in. Then they eat whatever they want for the next week or two. A kid that weighs in at 53 could easily be 57-58 by the time they wrestle. Then he ends up in a bracket for51.5-54 and is outside the 10% limit for the smaller kids in his bracket. So there is still a benefit to cutting with the 10% rule when kids have plenty of time to gain before they wrestle.

I had both coaches and parents tell me they did this for state. There is just way too much time between the "weigh in" and the tourney.

Also, have you ever considered that kids wrestle heavier at youth events than MS because the competition is weaker. I would venture to say this would still be the same if we had set weight classes at the youth tourney. The kids that wrestle MS wouldn't see the need to stay at a lower weight because the competition is not as strong. Again I don't care about weight classes nearly as much as I do the weigh ins. There has to be a better way to do it.

[Chris Duke 284]

I don't care about weight classes nearly as much as I do the weigh ins. There has to be a better way to do it.

 

I'm starting to move this way.  I think it is being looked at and it might even be taken care of before next year.

 

After listening to a couple people 8 man brackets are not the worst thing in the world for the younger kids.  Raider, I'm taking your advice we are traveling this Spring and Summer.  AAU Nationals, Ohio TOC, and I think Flo Nationals is on the radar.  

[raidercoach 51]

The biggest issue I have is with the lack of weigh ins. No matter what anyone likes to think, kids do cut weight with the 10% rule. When they are weighing 7-14 days before a tourney, many kids cut for the weigh in. Then they eat whatever they want for the next week or two. A kid that weighs in at 53 could easily be 57-58 by the time they wrestle. Then he ends up in a bracket for51.5-54 and is outside the 10% limit for the smaller kids in his bracket. So there is still a benefit to cutting with the 10% rule when kids have plenty of time to gain before they wrestle.

I had both coaches and parents tell me they did this for state. There is just way too much time between the "weigh in" and the tourney.

Also, have you ever considered that kids wrestle heavier at youth events than MS because the competition is weaker. I would venture to say this would still be the same if we had set weight classes at the youth tourney. The kids that wrestle MS wouldn't see the need to stay at a lower weight because the competition is not as strong. Again I don't care about weight classes nearly as much as I do the weigh ins. There has to be a better way to do it.

I agree 100% that the weigh ins need to be done closer to the event and standardized across the state. It is unacceptable to have teams weighing in themselves with no regional delegate and certified referees. We should have 4 satellite weigh in locations at most two days prior to the tournament.

Your example of weight cutting with 10% is certainly possible, but very unlikely. Weight cutting is almost never done to gain a weight advantage over competition. It is usually done to fit into a lineup (of set weight classes) or to either dodge or, in the case of Louden Swain, chase competition. You proved my point with the middle school comparison.

I sure hope you don't know of any 58 lb kids cutting 5 pounds for a youth wrestling tournament! That's a ton of weight for a kid that small and presumably has low body fat. No way we'd let a kid wrestle if we knew he was doing that.

I'm starting to move this way. I think it is being looked at and it might even be taken care of before next year.

After listening to a couple people 8 man brackets are not the worst thing in the world for the younger kids. Raider, I'm taking your advice we are traveling this Spring and Summer. AAU Nationals, Ohio TOC, and I think Flo Nationals is on the radar.

Awesome! Why don't you bring those studs over to the Raiders? Conner is gaining on us...we need to start recruiting!!!

[Bluesdad 73]

"Let the kid and their parents choose where they want to wrestle and slot them in there"....this is exactly the problem. Blue is how old? Kids his age should touch a scale at his NATURAL weight and go wrestle against other kids at their NATURAL weight. A parent or a coach should have nothing to do with what weight class he should wrestle. This is EXACTLY the mindset 10% protects against.

Just because you compete at some tournaments in SE Ohio and WV that use set weights doesn't make it more competitive or better. I assure you Blue would have his hand full winning most of the tournaments we attend in Cincinnati that do use 10%. We had a middle school runner-up on our youth team at Blue's weight, that didn't win a single youth tournament across the river and went 0-2 in at least one of them. Our kid is a stud, but its a different world over there, regardless of 10% or set weight classes.

Your comment about the money is WAY off base. We could move to weight classes tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the income generated at state. I promise you our motivation isn't money. We'd rather not have been involved with the state tournament this year. The money raised was surprisingly good this year, but we don't need money for our program. We do other things to finance the club and we are in good shape.

Blue is 9. No he doesn't cut weight. He wrestles youth tournaments at the 75lb class and weights in at 71lb every weekend. So if I was going to cut him He would make 70. He is my child and for me to make decisions for not you. But I appreciate your concern.

First off we don't just wrestle in SE Ohio. We have been to Cleveland, Akron, Medina, Minerva, and many more northern tournaments were wrestling is king. Blue has placed in everyone of them. The worst he has placed this year and last is third and that was at a WV tourney in St. Albans. So dont think we just go to Chesapeake and wrestle every weekend because that's not the case at all.

Now for your Cincinnati tournaments. We have been to the court for sports tournament and a couple others in the Mason area. he has beat every kid they have threw at him. Heard, Powell, Lugman and so on. So I agree the kids are great in this area and Blue does have his hands full but he works his tail off to get better. That's why we travel 6-7 hours a weekend to wrestle in Cleveland and Akron not to mention PA and MI. You can assure your self he is wrestling the best competition he can for a 9 year old. Now is he goingto always win NO. He hasn't this year and will more than likely lose again when we go to some of these other tough tournaments were going to. He's lost his fair share and understands he's not going to always win. But does he go into a match with the mind set he's better than the kid across from him? Sure. I teach him that as I should. But will that always be the case no it will not. All I'm trying to say is this we travel and try to give him Every advantage we can. While doing this I feel the set weights and weight classes are better suited for better competition. Now am I right some think so some think not. But that's why we all have a opinion. But I dont understand why you were so snide in your remarks about my son and where or how heavy he wrestles. He is a 9 year old boy who loves wrestling and works his tail off at it. He's doing it 6 sometimes 7 days a week putting in his time and here you are trying to down play his efforts. Hopefully in the future(say 6 or 7 years from now) we can pick this conversation back up after he is atop a podium and all his hard work and sacrifice has payed off. Thanks again.

[raidercoach 51]

The biggest issue I have is with the lack of weigh ins. No matter what anyone likes to think, kids do cut weight with the 10% rule. When they are weighing 7-14 days before a tourney, many kids cut for the weigh in. Then they eat whatever they want for the next week or two. A kid that weighs in at 53 could easily be 57-58 by the time they wrestle. Then he ends up in a bracket for51.5-54 and is outside the 10% limit for the smaller kids in his bracket. So there is still a benefit to cutting with the 10% rule when kids have plenty of time to gain before they wrestle.

I had both coaches and parents tell me they did this for state. There is just way too much time between the "weigh in" and the tourney.

Also, have you ever considered that kids wrestle heavier at youth events than MS because the competition is weaker. I would venture to say this would still be the same if we had set weight classes at the youth tourney. The kids that wrestle MS wouldn't see the need to stay at a lower weight because the competition is not as strong. Again I don't care about weight classes nearly as much as I do the weigh ins. There has to be a better way to do it.

I would love to know the coaches who told you they allow their YOUTH kids to cut weight so I could personally tell them how stupid they are to their face. I don't even care if they are bigger and tougher than me, that would be worth taking a butt kicking for in my opinion.