Youth State Duals

[MLee 68]

I would like to assist in bringing back Youth State Duals. I know this was done in the past. What were some of the issues? Who would attend? Anyone have suggestions for weight classes and age divisions? Anyone interested in working on this with me?

I have a facility we have used for our off-season training and Summer Camp. They told me they would host. All they need is a date. It can hold up to 8 mats if needed. They have been very accommodating and more importantly, not a school we have to fight for gym time w/ bball, volleyball, etc. I was originally thinking the weekend after State, but open to any suggestions. Here is a link if you'd like to check it out:

http://sportsofallsortsky.com/

I know this is an open forum, but please only provide constructive feedback. Thanks!

Matt Lee

Raider Youth Wrestling

[Ranger123 43]

Great idea. This is a perfect venue to crown a team champion.

[MLee 68]

Cmon Ranger, I was hoping for a little more. Not just a pat on the back and a subtle potshot. Suggestions on dates? Weight Classes? Would CC attend? Can you or anyone from your club help out w/ the organizing?

[plantmanky1 58]

Help me understand something please. We can come up with weight classes for a state duals tournament in the youth, but we can't have weight classes for the youth state tournament?

[Ranger123 43]

Date: within 1-3 weeks of the state tournament. I would say the next weekend, but I also would like to see participation from all around the state and making a huge trip on back to back weekends may be tough

CC: I'm sure we would participate and would likely help out as much as possible, I will still have one participating for another year or so, so I will be around to help a little myself.

Weights: I have to leave this one up to you as you have all of the data from the last few years. I don't like the idea of just randomly using USA weights, but rather think we should see what the KY kids have been weighing. The one thing I haven't thought enough about is should there be divisions or just one mega team. So do we go with Div 1-4 (5/6, 7/8, 9/10, 11/12) and 4 teams per club or Div 1-2 (5/6/7/8, 9/10/11/12) and 2 teams per club, or just one team with best each team has to offer. Either way, just look at the kids who have been participating and come up with the weights. I'm guessing you would start around 40 pounds and move up in 3-4 pound increments with 25 or so weights (depending on the number of divisions).

There you go. A few ideas and feedback. And I don't think I included any potshots.

[MLee 68]

We can take a look at other formats being used around the country. I've seen where dual formats will use an (A) and ( participant in the same weight as will as different age divisions. I'm open to anything at this point. 25 weight classes was the # that seemed right too. I'll take a look at the past 2 years and throw something out there. We have time, but I'd like to have everything completed before the season begins.

Thanks for your help and feedback.

[MLee 68]

Help me understand something please. We can come up with weight classes for a state duals tournament in the youth, but we can't have weight classes for the youth state tournament?

This comes from Stan Martin, who helped write the Youth Bylaws:

- Weight classes, there are true weight classes at all youth events. They are grouped from the lowest weight to the highest, 8 kids at a time unless there is a greater than 10% difference from the lowest weight. We tried having set weight classes in the 1st couple state tourneys, USA Wrestling weights. Over 50% of the brackets had less than 4 kids making the tournament have over 120 brackets. The 10% rule dropped the brackets to 87 with 79 full brackets. So, do you want to be the state champ of a 4 man or 8 man bracket? Why do you care if it is a published bracket or a floating one? Are we here to wrestle or win a PRE-DETERMINED weight class

This topic has been discussed at great lengths. In addition to the reasons Stan mentioned, I am not a fan of set weight classes for one key reason: it promotes weight cutting. I have watched 8 year old kids at "set weight" tournaments cutting weight. There is no way to stop it, unless we adopt some type of hydration testing like they do at the High School level, which will never happen. The 10% rule not only works out better logistically, but also is a safer alternative. There isn't an incentive for kids to lose weight because you cannot predict the weight classes.

As far as the Dual Tournament, not sure how to do it w/out set weight classes. I'm open to any suggestions you might have Plantman.

[BadMadDad 16]

I would support doing a “Super Team” type set up. Not sure what the smallest of the 5 year olds are weighing these days, but let’s say 40lbs, then work up in 5lb increments up to the youth Hwy Weight class. Each team can do a wrestle off/or select their top wrestler for each class. I would use the top 16 teams based on team size at current Regional/State. I don’t think it makes a bunch of sense to have any team with 10-15 kids wrestle in the youth state duels. Too many weight classes would have to be forfeited. I doubt any small team would be able to compete if they had to give up multiple weight classes.

If one of the top 16 teams chooses not to compete, move to the 17^th team up and so on. Split the 16 teams in pools of 4 and seed based on current roster for Regional/State roster numbers. Have all weigh-ins the day of the tourney, on site. This way, the youth kids get a chance to go through morning weigh-ins. I think that by doing the weigh–ins the morning of it will show the wrestlers what they will be dealing with when they make the next move up to MS. If each team turns in the “expected” team roster 2-3 days prior to the event. It will make it easier for the tourney administration to handle weigh-ins. Plus it will encourage coaches to plug in kids to proper spots and help to make sure none of their kids are “cutting weight” for the event.

Looks like some really great ideas have been presented so far. I think that this would be an awesome event for the wrestlers and coaches. True team wrestling at its finest.

[Chris Duke 284]

Thunder the only thing I would change is give a 1# allowance. That way there are not any surprises the day of weigh-ins and all kids have a chance to wrestle. Remember if this tournament happens they are only youth kids.

[Ranger123 43]

Yeah, but it is a dual event, so being over weight will not prevent a kid from competing, the coach would just have to adjust the lineup a bit or swap kids in and out.

[MLee 68]

I would support doing a “Super Team” type set up. Not sure what the smallest of the 5 year olds are weighing these days, but let’s say 40lbs, then work up in 5lb increments up to the youth Hwy Weight class. Each team can do a wrestle off/or select their top wrestler for each class. I would use the top 16 teams based on team size at current Regional/State. I don’t think it makes a bunch of sense to have any team with 10-15 kids wrestle in the youth state duels. Too many weight classes would have to be forfeited. I doubt any small team would be able to compete if they had to give up multiple weight classes.

If one of the top 16 teams chooses not to compete, move to the 17^th team up and so on. Split the 16 teams in pools of 4 and seed based on current roster for Regional/State roster numbers. Have all weigh-ins the day of the tourney, on site. This way, the youth kids get a chance to go through morning weigh-ins. I think that by doing the weigh–ins the morning of it will show the wrestlers what they will be dealing with when they make the next move up to MS. If each team turns in the “expected” team roster 2-3 days prior to the event. It will make it easier for the tourney administration to handle weigh-ins. Plus it will encourage coaches to plug in kids to proper spots and help to make sure none of their kids are “cutting weight” for the event.

Looks like some really great ideas have been presented so far. I think that this would be an awesome event for the wrestlers and coaches. True team wrestling at its finest.

Thanks for the suggestions. 5 lb increments might be a bit much at the lower weights. I'll look at the previous State Tournaments and other Youth tournaments as a guide for the weight classes.

[Ranger123 43]

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

[MLee 68]

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

This looks like a good start. Question: how do we (or should we) divide up the ages?

[BadMadDad 16]

Just looking at OH youth weights, here is a shot:

40, 43, 46, 49, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 180, 200

But again, Matt can look at the data and adjust as needed. I know it seems like there are 8000 brackets for kids around 68 pounds each year. Not sure if that means we should add a few weights in there (66 and 70) or just let it go as the natural progression of weight suggests.

Ranger, I like the looks of the weights above. With the smaller kids, we would have to have some of the 5-6 year olds competing. At a Youth state level, it will be great to see a mixture of 5-6 year olds but also all the other age ranges in there as well. It will take a true team effort to win the tourney.

This looks like a good start. Question: how do we (or should we) divide up the ages?

I don't think you should divide the ages at all. Simply put, the best wrestler reps the club at their weight class.

[Ranger123 43]

I like having one big team; all ages. We put together a 13 and under team last month for a dual in OH and it was a blast. By dividing it up into too many age groups will make it harder to field full teams and likely lead to less participation. My vote is 1 team all youth ages.

[MLee 68]

I like having one big team; all ages. We put together a 13 and under team last month for a dual in OH and it was a blast. By dividing it up into too many age groups will make it harder to field full teams and likely lead to less participation. My vote is 1 team all youth ages.

OK, that's how we'll do it.

[Chris Duke 284]

Will this be a true youth tournament or will we allow Middle School kids. I like the idea of one big team just think we should stop it at the 5th grade. Middle school kids have a tournament already. I don't like the idea of a 12 year old going against a 8 year old.

[MLee 68]

What about team seeding? I liked the idea of using the the State Tournament as a way to seed, but as of today, we no longer have team scores. Any suggestions?

[Chris Duke 284]

Seed by team size. It doesn't meant they have the best team but the have the most to pull from. The chances are the bigger teams will have solid kids.

[MLee 68]

Will this be a true youth tournament or will we allow Middle School kids. I like the idea of one big team just think we should stop it at the 5th grade. Middle school kids have a tournament already. I don't like the idea of a 12 year old going against a 8 year old.

I'm not a big fan of a 12 year old against an 8 year old either, but not sure how to avoid that w/out creating age divisions. One idea is to create divisions only in the common overlapping weight classes, like an A and a B based on age. I've seen this done in other dual formats. I'll be sure to investigate.

I would want to see each program's best kids, regardless if they wrestle Middle School or not. Not sure why we'd want to exclude the top youth wrestlers for an event like this just because they're good. As long as they are of age/weight, they should be elgible.

[Ranger123 43]

I think any kid eligible for youth state should be eligible for this event. Grade (elementary vs middle school) doesn't always correlate with age.

[BadMadDad 16]

Plus, if this is a true team tourney the coaches will have to put the best kids up at each class. In one match the 8 year old may have to battle a 12 year old, but against the next team he may have a 6 year old. Since we still run an individual state tourney, each wrestler will have the chance to battle it out to be the state champion. Since the format of the duels would be based on team scores, it is up to each club to put together the most solid team from top to bottom based on the entire roster. I think that will make it special to have a 5-6 year olds be important to his team as a 12 year old stud MS wrestler. Every point will count!!!

[Ranger123 43]

Exactly. That was the fun part of the team we put together. To see MS state champs and placers cheering on 8 or 9 year old kids to help the team and giving them a pat on the back after a big win or lifting them up after a tough loss.

[Chris Duke 284]

I'm all for putting your best team on the mat I would just hate to see a kid get hurt. My son would be one of the 8 or 9 year olds wrestling against older kids. I'm not to worried about him just worried about the kids that are not as aggressive. This sounds like an awesome idea lets just make sure it works and grows!

[BadMadDad 16]

Ranger correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this tried at the youth level a few years ago? Does anyone remember any issues? If there were, now would be a good time to get them out here to be discussed. If not, great! This looks like a fun time as well as a chance for the best in the state to shine!