Youth State Duals

[MLee 68]

Ranger correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this tried at the youth level a few years ago? Does anyone remember any issues? If there were, now would be a good time to get them out here to be discussed. If not, great! This looks like a fun time as well as a chance for the best in the state to shine!

One of the initial concerns I have is participation. If we cannot get a strong enough commitment from the clubs around the state, we're dead in the water.

[Ranger123 43]

I would expect NKY and Louisville/Oldham to show good participation. So you would get a solid 4-6 teams. I think that is a good start. If we give it a try and get some of the best 5 or 6 teams in the state there and all of the kids get 5 matches in then I think it will be a win. And eventually more will buy in. I'm just not sure you will see Union bring a group up. Hopefully Johnson County would be on board.

I don't recall the issues if/when this was tried in the past.

[plantmanky1 58]

The issues were that no one wanted to participate because when you didn't have a kid in a weight/age group you lost 6 points for forfeit (which is standard in HS & MS Duals.) If you didn't have 70 kids to fill all the spots, you had no chance as soon as you walked in the door. So whats the point.

I know the one year our youth group participated we didnt have 9 or so of the weights, so we were down 54 points before we ever started.

[Ranger123 43]

That's why I say it needs to be limited to 20-25 weight classes.

[raidercoach 51]

Man I hope this gets done. If we can put this together, it would be a ton of fun for the kids. Win, lose or draw, I expect the kids will have way more fun at a dual tournament than the individual tournaments.

[raidercoach 51]

The issues were that no one wanted to participate because when you didn't have a kid in a weight/age group you lost 6 points for forfeit (which is standard in HS & MS Duals.) If you didn't have 70 kids to fill all the spots, you had no chance as soon as you walked in the door. So whats the point.

I know the one year our youth group participated we didnt have 9 or so of the weights, so we were down 54 points before we ever started.

I like to call this a "man in the mirror problem". You suggest we can't keep team scores at state because some teams have too many kids. Now you are suggesting teams don't want to attend a dual tournament because they don't have enough kids. Here is my solution to this: GET MORE KIDS! That is YOUR responsibility as a coach. That is where YOU as a coach compete with other teams. Either get more kids or accept that you are at a disadvantage. This is not new to the sport of wrestling. Teams at every level struggle filling line ups. Getting and keeping kids is a talent that some coaches have and some don't.

[J.W. 21]

GET MORE KIDS! That is YOUR responsibility as a coach.

You have criticized others for acting like they have all the answers. If your job forced you to move to a small county, but that is where the income that fed your family was - would you just pay to move more people in - since that is your answer to everything.

If it is a small area, which there are some of those throughout the state, maybe those teams should just shutdown and not have these kids wrestling - since you say their coaches are failing. Before you hit send, read it out loud so you here how stupid that sounds.

Be fortunate that you are in a highly populated area - but don't think that the numbers represent your abilities as a coach.

[MLee 68]

JW, not speaking for Raidercoach, (he does a good job doing that on his own) but Union, KY is not a highly populated area. I believe we have less than 6,000 people. We do pull some from Florence, KY, but the majority of our kids are not from there.

[hoosierdad 1]

You should follow the ISWA weight classes and age groups, works well. www.iswa.com Just a suggestion.

[BadMadDad 16]

If this event can get off the ground, would it be an issue for a couple of smaller clubs to come together to form a team for this? I know the idea is for it to be a youth club duel, but if we could get a few small clubs together to form a team it may help a bit with the numbers. We have a small club, but if it could help to get the kids more matches, I wouldn’t have an issue. I would hate to see it get set up and not have any teams interested or worse than that, several forfeits. Do kids join wrestling to get matches or take forfeits?

Realistically, you could have an entire region join up to form a super team. I’m just trying to think outside the box.

I think it could be a very cool event, but it may not be much fun if you only have 2-3 teams on board. Plus the amount of work it will take to put together.

BTW…..I am not complaining about my club size. With the limited number of coaches we have, we do all we can for our kids.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

JW, not speaking for Raidercoach, (he does a good job doing that on his own) but Union, KY is not a highly populated area. I believe we have less than 6,000 people. We do pull some from Florence, KY, but the majority of our kids are not from there.

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

[raidercoach 51]

You have criticized others for acting like they have all the answers. If your job forced you to move to a small county, but that is where the income that fed your family was - would you just pay to move more people in - since that is your answer to everything.

If it is a small area, which there are some of those throughout the state, maybe those teams should just shutdown and not have these kids wrestling - since you say their coaches are failing. Before you hit send, read it out loud so you here how stupid that sounds.

Be fortunate that you are in a highly populated area - but don't think that the numbers represent your abilities as a coach.

My response was to a coach from Kenton County, which is more populated than Boone County which is where we are from. Based on the 2010 census, Kenton County has 40,000 MORE people than Boone County. Boone County is the 4th largest county in KY. It is about a fifth of the size of Jefferson County, half the size of Fayette County and 40,000 less than Kenton County. Boone is only about 4,000 and 7,000 people larger than Harden and Warren Counties respectively.

Yet, Boone County has the 2 largest youth programs in the state and 2 other very big ones that are growing like wild fire. I never said he was failing, I suggested to get more kids because I know it can be done because I've seen it done in less populated areas.

[raidercoach 51]

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

Actually Union's population is smaller than 6000. The latest census has us at 3,710. I'm not trying to downplay the advantages of having high population to get programs going. It is an obvious advantage. But, all we are talking about in most instances is getting 15-20 more kids. That can be done in most areas.

[MLee 68]

Not speaking for JW, but that's 6000 people for an area thats 3 square miles. I'm sure he was talking about county wide areas with the same type population spread over hundreds of miles. 6000 people for 3 square is extremely densely populated, and Boone county is well over a 100,000.

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

[MLee 68]

You should follow the ISWA weight classes and age groups, works well. www.iswa.com Just a suggestion.

Thanks for the suggestion. Any idea where I can find the format? I've looked around and couldn't find it.

[raidercoach 51]

If this event can get off the ground, would it be an issue for a couple of smaller clubs to come together to form a team for this? I know the idea is for it to be a youth club duel, but if we could get a few small clubs together to form a team it may help a bit with the numbers. We have a small club, but if it could help to get the kids more matches, I wouldn’t have an issue. I would hate to see it get set up and not have any teams interested or worse than that, several forfeits. Do kids join wrestling to get matches or take forfeits?

Realistically, you could have an entire region join up to form a super team. I’m just trying to think outside the box.

I think it could be a very cool event, but it may not be much fun if you only have 2-3 teams on board. Plus the amount of work it will take to put together.

BTW…..I am not complaining about my club size. With the limited number of coaches we have, we do all we can for our kids.

i think those are awesome ideas

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Actually Union's population is smaller than 6000. The latest census has us at 3,710. I'm not trying to downplay the advantages of having high population to get programs going. It is an obvious advantage. But, all we are talking about in most instances is getting 15-20 more kids. That can be done in most areas.

15-20 kids? I know football teams in this area (Louisville) that can't just run out and get that many kids but you make it sound as if that sounds so easy for a wrestling team which we all know gets way less support. If it were so easy the talk of growing the sport would'nt even be an issue. Not here to argue it, just pointing out a fact. There are 120 counties in KY, Boone being the fourth largest as you pointed out, plus just the sheer popularity of the sport in that region versus the lack of support in the rest of the state does not make it as easy as you suggest. I am the type to see a young kid, ask the parents if they are involved in any sports, suggest restling and give them the website, and feel lucky if I see one out of fifty actually show up within a year.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

Here's one. Continue this debate in a positive direction, stop the the name calling, arguementative attitudes, and finger pointing. Besides that, as far as youth level goes doesnt matter to me if they crown a team champ or not. At that age, the kids mostly care about individual achievements. Just my opinion.

[raidercoach 51]

15-20 kids? I know football teams in this area (Louisville) that can't just run out and get that many kids but you make it sound as if that sounds so easy for a wrestling team which we all know gets way less support. If it were so easy the talk of growing the sport would'nt even be an issue. Not here to argue it, just pointing out a fact. There are 120 counties in KY, Boone being the fourth largest as you pointed out, plus just the sheer popularity of the sport in that region versus the lack of support in the rest of the state does not make it as easy as you suggest. I am the type to see a young kid, ask the parents if they are involved in any sports, suggest restling and give them the website, and feel lucky if I see one out of fifty actually show up within a year.

Mike, I'm not saying it is easy at all. In fact, I've seen first hand how hard it is to build and grow a program. I have the utmost respect for everyone that is involved with this sport, regardless the size of their program (with the exception of Ranger right now). I just think we should aspire to be bigger and better. I think we have spent a lot of time tallking lately about accommodating smaller programs versus trying to encourage their growth. If we keep catering everything to the smaller programs, then where will their motivation be to grow?

[raidercoach 51]

I'd like to see a united effort to fund raise for smaller programs. I love the idea of taking the profits from this tournament and some how donate it towards buying a mat or paying for and organizing an awesome free camp for the small teams.

[MLee 68]

Here's one. Continue this debate in a positive direction, stop the the name calling, arguementative attitudes, and finger pointing. Besides that, as far as youth level goes doesnt matter to me if they crown a team champ or not. At that age, the kids mostly care about individual achievements. Just my opinion.

Not quite sure when I did that, but very well. Let's move on.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Not quite sure when I did that, but very well. Let's move on.

Sorry, general statement. Not directed at any one individual. I respect the efforts you guys are trying to make. Bottom line, can't please them all.

[trithis 34]

I'd like to see a united effort to fund raise for smaller programs. I love the idea of taking the profits from this tournament and some how donate it towards buying a mat or paying for and organizing an awesome free camp for the small teams.

I see that as as one of the best ideas I've heard yet. Raise money to help start and grow new programs. I don't think it has to be just for smaller programs though. Help...with :"criteria" and not just hand a mat (used or new) to anyone who says they want to start a team. That would be rediculous. Make the person(s) who want to start a team have some skin in the game and have to prove it.

[raidercoach 51]

How about use the profits to put on a camp and pay for all of the coaches and wrestlers who want to attend from some of the "smaller" schools? We could put it on Lexington or maybe even do two, one for the east/west or north/south. It could be a cool recruiting tool for the smaller programs. "Come learn how to wrestle for free". We would tailor the camp around early basics and make it really fun so the kids want to come back. I'm sure we could round up some stud clinicians to do it at a discount if they knew what we were doing. Just a thought.

[BadMadDad 16]

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

I would think it would be cool to have this the week after youth state. Because we would only have one kid per weight class/per team after state we could then call in the wrestlers that would be involved in the duels only. I'm concerned that if we tried to plan it during the season, the kids not involved would lose out on practice time if the focus is getting the duel team ready. Plus if you have a couple of clubs joining forces, it would give them a little prep time after the regular season comes to a close.

I think that it is very cool for the bigger clubs to think about us small clubs as far as profit sharing is concerned. But I agree that if your willing to help the smaller programs that they need to be as helpful as possible by providing some table workers, etc. Looks like this is heading in the right direction. It sure will be a fun event to watch.