No team scores for Youth State Tournament

[J.W. 21]

I agree, the only place anyone ever wants to point to is the Cincinnatti youth league as their justification for the 10% rule, which makes me laugh every time that our state wants to be the kid sister of a city league. There is not a major wrestling state using the 10% rule for their state tournaments, there is not a major national tournament that uses the 10% rule for their tournament.

I have heard we use the 10% rule to continue to grow wrestling, but if you have over 1000 kids going to the tournament.....you have probably grown pretty well - that no longer holds weight.

[Ranger123 43]

I agree JW. I think we those who have organized the state association and events the last few years have done a fantastic job on the growth side. We have probably more than doubled (or more) the size of this tournament in the last 5 years. I personally feel like we are ready to take the next step and run our event the way the "major" states do it. In order to do that we have to be efficient, hence my support of eliminating current team scores so resources can be used elsewhere (and personally I don't see the title as meaning much).

[MLee 68]

Definitely doesn't eliminate it. I have seen kids not eat and work to lose weight just to keep their weight down under the 10% rule.

I would have to see a major state using the 10% rule for post season competition before I would believe it.

There is absolutely no reason or incentive to lose weight w/ the 10% rule. The next time you see a kid lose weight under the 10% rule, explain to him that by losing weight he might end up being the lightest kid in his weight class and by gaining weight, he might end up being the heaviest. You just cannot predict.

Define post season? Cincinnati uses the 10% rule for their "year end" City Wide Tournament. Many youth tournaments around the country don't set the weight classes until weigh ins.

[Ranger123 43]

I understand you can't predict it. But no one is ever going to take the approach of gaining weight and hoping to be the heaviest. And when you weigh in lighter you will most likely end up in a bracket with lighter kids. Especially if you are in that range with tons of kids.

City wide is just another event to most of OH. Their state tournaments (Ourway and OAC) use set weight classes. Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule. Not claiming it doesn't happen, I just haven't been to those events.

[BadMadDad 16]

I for one think the 10% rule has been great for youth wrestling in KY. I remember some of the earlier state events with the small brackets (3-4 kids total) and an event that lasted all day between both sessions. Now it seems the majority of the brackets are full. I guess the question is are the numbers up enough to justify a change? We can debate it for years, but the proof is in the numbers. The other major plus I see with the 10% rule is without set weight classes, how do kids know that cutting weight is going to give them any type of competitive advantage. They don’t and that’s the point.

As of now, we still are only wrestling brackets of 8, so that being said, are we going to crown 5 different state champs for a 9-10 year 65lb class? That seems crazy. I for one, would not mind larger brackets. I know the idea to award several state champs is an entirely different issue, but if we awarded out to 6 and or 8 places based on a 16 man bracket, we are still accomplishing the goal of awarding kids for their hard work and awarding hardware as incentive for them to come back to the sport the following year and we are getting closer to awarding 1 overall champion.

The only major issue I have with the 10% rule is that it allows for way too much shuffling within the brackets. I’d like to see us keep the weights as close together as possible. I don’t care if my wrestlers have to face kids from the same region and or team if it is to determine a true state champ. I don’t mind taking efforts to try to separate kids within the bracket due to region and or teammates competing. If it is done this way, it is completely transparent.

Lets keep working on it, I know we can get it right. Most of us are former wrestlers ourselves, so I know we don't have any quit in us....

[MLee 68]

I understand you can't predict it. But no one is ever going to take the approach of gaining weight and hoping to be the heaviest. And when you weigh in lighter you will most likely end up in a bracket with lighter kids. Especially if you are in that range with tons of kids.

City wide is just another event to most of OH. Their state tournaments (Ourway and OAC) use set weight classes. Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule. Not claiming it doesn't happen, I just haven't been to those events.

Ranger, are you trying to say the 10% rule does not help prevent weight cutting?

[MLee 68]

"Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule."

Army Midwest Nationals

[plantmanky1 58]

Ranger, are you trying to say the 10% rule does not help prevent weight cutting?

Honestly, I would say you have more weight cutting with the 10% then you would with having weight classes. You have many kids (or more so parents) wanting to get their kid to the lowest weight possible, knowing full well that they have plenty of time to add that weight back in the next 7-10 before the state tournament. Nothing like weight inn at 65lbs on weight in day, and being 75 or more at state tournament.

[MLee 68]

Honestly, I would say you have more weight cutting with the 10% then you would with having weight classes. You have many kids (or more so parents) wanting to get their kid to the lowest weight possible, knowing full well that they have plenty of time to add that weight back in the next 7-10 before the state tournament. Nothing like weight inn at 65lbs on weight in day, and being 75 or more at state tournament.

Plantman, with all due respect, you are completely wrong. I particpated in Cincinnati tournaments as a kid well before the 10% rule. I recall seeing "kids" in plastics and spitting in cups prior to tournaments. You don't see that activity anymore. But don't take my word for it, ask the officials of CYW and other organizations around the country that have adopted it. They'll tell you the same.

Look at the logic behind dropping weight for a 10% rule tournament. Say Johnny weighs 70 lbs naturally. Crazy dad/coach tells little Johnny he needs to drop 3 lbs for the tournament. He now weighs 67. Random draw puts Johnny in bracket 67-72 lbs.

Now let's contrast that with set weight classes. Weight classes are set 65, 67, 70, 73... Little Johnny now drops to 67 to get to a bracket full of 70 lbers that dropped to 67!

[Ranger123 43]

MLEE, yes I do believe it impacts weight cutting but does NOT eliminate it. As plantman says, kids/parents just shoot for the lowest possible weight assuming they will at least have a size advantage. Because recall, at this point they get to weigh in for a regional event that will be at least a couple weeks earlier and performance at this event doesn't really matter (not a qualifier) so the impact of weight loss is irrelevant (to them).

Army Midwest Nationals is a decent event. Anything else?

[MLee 68]

MLEE, yes I do believe it impacts weight cutting but does NOT eliminate it. As plantman says, kids/parents just shoot for the lowest possible weight assuming they will at least have a size advantage. Because recall, at this point they get to weigh in for a regional event that will be at least a couple weeks earlier and performance at this event doesn't really matter (not a qualifier) so the impact of weight loss is irrelevant (to them).

Army Midwest Nationals is a decent event. Anything else?

Well, I guess you're correct...you cannot eliminate stupid. If coaches/parents want their kids to drop weight for the sake of dropping weight although there is CLEAR evidence it doesn't help, go right ahead. You can create all the hypotheticals you'd like, but w/ set weight classes, dropping weight is common. W/out, it is ALMOST eliminated.

[Ranger123 43]

That is my point. You can't eliminate stupid. And is the logic much different with weight classes? Dropping weight to run from competition that you may not escape.

[MLee 68]

That is my point. You can't eliminate stupid. And is the logic much different with weight classes? Dropping weight to run from competition that you may not escape.

Ranger, you seem to dismiss the obvious point in this debate: the results. With the 10% rule, weight cutting has been "almost" eliminated. With set weight classes, almost all kids drop a few lbs. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. You can try (which I bet you will) but you'd be wrong.

I wrestled in pre-10% rule, Cincinnati youth tournaments as a kid...cutting weight was rampant. Almost every wrestler on our team did it. Almost every kid on the opposing teams did it. It was the norm.

Fast forward 20+ years. I coach a youth team of over 100 kids and I have not seen 1 kid attempt to lose weight...not 1.

[Ranger123 43]

You can't attribute the change in weight loss solely to the 10% rule. Weight loss is viewed differently throughout wrestling and coaches are generally more informed.

Let me ask this. If the 10% rule is the silver bullet to all of our weight loss woes, then why don't we just adopt it at all levels?

[MLee 68]

You can't attribute the change in weight loss solely to the 10% rule. Weight loss is viewed differently throughout wrestling and coaches are generally more informed.

Let me ask this. If the 10% rule is the silver bullet to all of our weight loss woes, then why don't we just adopt it at all levels?

What would you attribute it to then? The 10% rule was created by more informed coaches and ambassadors of the sport. The idea didn't just drop out of the sky.

The higher levels are organized enough to implement hydration tests and weight management programs to monitor. The youth cannot decide on team scores or not.

[Ranger123 43]

If as you say we can't decide to be organized at the youth level then we shouldn't be worried about growth, because it will not be maintained if the organization is failing. I personally think the organization has done well. And growth has occurred. I just think we are ready to move forward.

[Ranger123 43]

Matt, in my opinion, it is very simple. Coaches are the key. We can create any rules, regulations, or hoops to jump through, but we as coaches are the driving force in the weight a kid wrestles. Well, I take that back. When we operate the way most of the wrestling world works, coaches control weight classes. Under the 10% rule, the kids/parents have more control over it.

[plantmanky1 58]

The 10 % rule is a joke anyways once you have kids that are over about 90lbs. You end up wrestling kids that are heavier than what you would if you had defined weight classes. Never been a fan of the 10% rule and would be happy to get rid of it.

[MLee 68]

If as you say we can't decide to be organized at the youth level then we shouldn't be worried about growth, because it will not be maintained if the organization is failing. I personally think the organization has done well. And growth has occurred. I just think we are ready to move forward.

Ha, I agree it has done well. That is precisely why I didn't understand the big push to change it.

[J.W. 21]

I grew up wrestling in a WV, PA, Ohio circuit. Have traveled up and down the east coast with my kids wrestling in tournaments where everyone used weight classes....not just at states but at every single tournament we went to. International, College, High School and MS use weight classes. The only thing that Kentucky advocates of the 10% rule can point to is the Cincinnatti Youth League as their primary argument.

Fully believe that this state is ready to go to the next level and have weigh ins, and weight classes. My first experience with a Kentucky tournament was a kid 15 pounds heavier than the 10% variance because people lie and hope to not get caught.

If you really care about the kids........make it as fair as possible for them with weight classes and weigh-ins. Instead of saying as a tournament director it is just too hard and time consuming to make it fair for them. The only reason you choose to do weigh-ins 5 days earlier is to make life easier on the adult running the tournament...not the fairness of the kid. From 55 pounds on the 10% is outside of what the weight classes would be for USA wrestling at the youth ages - thats more of a disadvantage for the kid, but saved the director time.

[raidercoach 51]

Here is my take for those of you opposed to the 10% rule. When I wrestled in college, there were 4 wrestlers (I believe 3 from college and 1 from high school) that DIED from cutting weight. At the same time, there was a huge fight building and continues from many in the wrestling world to keep our college teams alive. I spoke with a few people who were very involved with this fight that admitted the deaths of those four kids drastically hurt in many cases where colleges were on the fence about keeping or dropping a program. Our sport just cannot take that kind of poor publicity. If you think our state struggles to keep up with some of our neighbors now, wait until an 8 year kid from Frankfort dies from weight cutting. While that is very dramatic I must admit, it is a potential risk with weight cutting. Especially since, as Coach Lee pointed out, we just aren't organized enough yet at the youth level to apply the regulations such as hydration and body fat tests.

For those of you who believe the 10% doesn't significantly reduce weight cutting vs weight classes, you are out of your mind. Cutting weight was a huge part of the culture in youth wrestling when I grew up. Every youth tournament I attended (almost all were in Ohio), there was rampant weight cutting going on. It was out in the open and accepted by everyone. However, I agree with Ranger that the 10% rule isn't the only thing to reduce weight cutting. We are WAY more educated today about nutrition then we were then.

I help coach the largest youth team in the state and I know of only one instance where a kid was cutting weight. This kid wrestled youth for 3 years, and cutting weight never crossed neither his nor his parents' minds while under the 10% rule. However, during his 4th season, he began wrestling both middle and youth and guess what.....he started cutting weight. Hmmmmm, I wonder why that was? I spoke with the father and attempted to educate as much as possible, but he continued to do it for the sole purpose of making a starting spot at a specific weight class for the middle school. There is overwhelming evidence to support that the 10% removes the culture of weight cutting from wrestling. You can either accept the facts or bury your head in the sand.

I know this message board becomes a vortex of negativity and arguing for some reason. I will admit that I am like a moth to the flame when it comes to a good argument that I'm passionate about. However, if there is anything that we should all rally around it is the safety of our kids. That should trump all of the other nit picking that goes on on this site. For those of you that need evidence that other states or big tournaments use 10% rule, I would ask...why? If we have evidence to support that it reduces the risk of weight cutting, (some argue it eliminates, but most agree it drastically reduces) then why do we need validation from Ohio or Pennsylvania? If it is the right thing to do, lets do it and move on.

The other major benefit of the 10% rule is, it allows kids to wrestle different kids all year long. If you have set weight classes, chances are the kids are going to wrestle the same kids over and over and over at every tournament. With 10%, the competition changes significantly every week which is a good thing. Just another thought to consider.

[plantmanky1 58]

A kid in HS football has died in the state of KY each of the last 4 seasons due to some issue. Participation in HS football is at one of its highest points ever in KY. Your correlation between death of participants and impact on sport doesn't necessarily hold water.

[J.W. 21]

Well it is official, people who have been involved in wrestling as the governing body of USA wrestling and AAU wrestling, have oversight of wrestling all over the country and have came up with weight classes know nothing about this sport. They should fold up those organizations and fall under the Kentucky 10% rule nationwide.

The Ohio TOC will just let you email your weights in this year with your coaches signature on a spreadsheet, because that is a trustworthy way of doing business.

Same with the Asics Nationals, Brute Nationals.....wait hold on, nevermind - they will still run their tournaments with weight classes and weigh-ins.

[raidercoach 51]

A kid in HS football has died in the state of KY each of the last 4 seasons due to some issue. Participation in HS football is at one of its highest points ever in KY. Your correlation between death of participants and impact on sport doesn't necessarily hold water.

Football and Wrestling = Apples and Oranges

You are comparing by FAR the most popular sport in our country vs one that is dying rapidly at the college level. If you don't believe what I stated as fact, you can talk to our head coach and the team of attorneys who represented us from Chicago (all former wrestlers) as we fought to keep our team from being dropped.

[Ranger123 43]

Football and wrestling are tough to compare, but that is as applicable as the impact of weight on programs being dropped.