Youth State Tournament

[MLee 68]

I thought it would be a good time to start a discussion around the state about our upcoming Youth State Tournament.  As the host team, we're really interested in everyone's input on how to improve the tournament for everyone (kids, coaches, parents, refs).  We will be implementing a few changes this year to help prevent some of the issues in the past.  Any ideas? 

[yeoldhdad 0]

Where is Youth State this year?

[heavy83 15]

Frankfort Civic center feb. 20

[JCB 2]

Last year state tournament at Frankfort was worst experience that we have had at any of the Elementary Tournaments.  Below is a few example of the chaos of last year tournament.  Teams was given 4 coaches passes with I believe 16 or 20 different wrestling areas.  These 16 / 20 different wrestling areas was made up of 1/ 4 of a mat.  Having larger & older  wrestlers wrestling on only a forth of a mat just does not work.  In addition, larger kids wrestled beside of much smaller kids.  The concessions offered was poor and costly. 

Positives:  I saw many of the young wrestlers at the high school state tournament.  The large number of wrestlers. 

[jdsdad 3]

I had many of my kids wrestle last year without a coach or with a parent coaching.  I understand with a tournament of this size it is hard to keep in going and everyone informed.  Make sure that the refs do not start a match without a coach present.

[Ranger123 43]

Last year state tournament at Frankfort was worst experience that we have had at any of the Elementary Tournaments.  Below is a few example of the chaos of last year tournament.  Teams was given 4 coaches passes with I believe 16 or 20 different wrestling areas.  These 16 / 20 different wrestling areas was made up of 1/ 4 of a mat.  Having larger & older  wrestlers wrestling on only a forth of a mat just does not work.  In addition, larger kids wrestled beside of much smaller kids.  The concessions offered was poor and costly. 

Positives:  I saw many of the young wrestlers at the high school state tournament.  The large number of wrestlers.

Unfortunately, you will see the same poor and costly concessions again.  Unless the feedback from last year impacts those that run the facility.  They disctate the concessions.  As far as the 1/4 mats and multiple surfaces that was necessary with the number of kids participating.  There may be a way those running the event this year can arrange for 1/2 mats for the bigger kids.

[MLee 68]

Adjusting the mat sizes (really the amount of mats) is tricky.  I'd be concerned about hosting a 1 day tournament w/ 1,000 kids (give or take) on only 12 mats or less.  Indeed, the kids have more space to wrestle, and one could argue less out of bounds time could help speed up the matches.  Also, there would be less tables and table workers, which continues to be an issue for the youth tournament.  I'm just not sure we'll have enough time to complete the tourney at a reasonable time.   

We attended a youth tournament this year that used full mats.  The tournament director claimed it would speed up the tournament, however we were there all day and they only had around 350-400 kids.  Granted, they only used 4 full mats and the quality of the wrestling was better for everyone.  Maybe in the future we can use the Regional Tournaments as a qualifier to decrease the number.

We are going to give more passes for the coaches, but will insist they and the wrestlers sit in the designated seating areas assigned to their mat until called.  We're hopeful this will help cut back on the floor chaos. 

The food situation is what it is.  Until it gets changed, like Ranger said, we're at their mercy. 

     

[ukmike22000 0]

One suggestion I will make to ALL teams attending the tournament is to sit down with your regional rep and review your rosters before they get turned in to the host team for state.  We had a situation last year where one of our kids wrestled at regionals and was on our roster, but was left off the list submitted by the regional rep and given to the people running the tournament.  Luckily for us there was a kid in the next weight bracket up that could not make the tournament and our boy was given his spot.  However, if that boy would not have been sick our boy would not have wrestled.

KEY POINT:  It is not the host school's responsibility to make sure your list is complete----it is your responsibility.  Do not let your regional rep turn in your roster without your coach or team mom checking it one last time.  Many thanks to the fine folks at Campbell Co. for taking a bad situation and making it work.

[naplesme 58]

Stop calling it a State Tournament when a great majority of the Western part of the state doesn't participate. We would, if you would hold the tournament at a later date, however do to the short sightedness of the organizers, those of us who coach both High School and elementary cannot possibly do both back to back. Add in the fact that those same Western coaches also coach a majority of the Middle School programs wrestling the day after the High School state tournament will never allow for the participation of a majority of the Western Kentucky elementary programs.

[Nkawtg 137]

Hi all,

I'm new to Kentucky (I'm from NE Ohio), but wrestled from age 10 through Division I college.  My boy is 8 and in his first year of wrestling.  We are excited about the regionals and state tournament.  Please forgive my ignorance, but I have some questions.

1.  Why is there a regional when everyone wrestles at the State meet?

2.  Why is there such an overlap between elementary and middle school?  Our team has had 4th graders wresting at the middle school district/regionals.  Seems a bit odd to have a 4th grader competing against an 8th grader.  Is this common?

3.  I've lived all over the US and have been very impressed with Ky wrestling.  It's not on par with PA or OH, but pretty close to WV and IN wrestling imo.  Seems to be up and coming also.  Any thoughts?

Thanks for any responses.  As far as the state tourney goes, I'm a newbie and cant wait to see it.

[Nkawtg 137]

Stop calling it a State Tournament when a great majority of the Western part of the state doesn't participate. We would, if you would hold the tournament at a later date, however do to the short sightedness of the organizers, those of us who coach both High School and elementary cannot possibly do both back to back. Add in the fact that those same Western coaches also coach a majority of the Middle School programs wrestling the day after the High School state tournament will never allow for the participation of a majority of the Western Kentucky elementary programs.

Would having the tourney in Louisville make it better since it's more centrally located?  Seems like an impossible complaint to address.

[naplesme 58]

[Would having the tourney in Louisville make it better since it's more centrally located?  Seems like an impossible complaint to address./b]

No, having it later-sometime in March- would help. Most Western Kentucky teams don't get started until after Middle school ends. I coach all three programs. Imagine my asking my high school wrestlers to sit around all day after 3 days of wrestling to wait for the elementary wrestlers to compete., not a good idea. Holding it later into March means my elementary wrestlers would get a whole month of practice and at least 2 competitions under their belt before they would have to wrestle in the state championships.

[MLee 68]

Naples, I'm not sure what else to call the tournament.  Also, not sure I understand why these challenges only have an impact on your area.  Please explain.  I know programs in our region (NKY) have aggressively recruited help to have coaches at all levels.  Almost all top programs in any state have multiple coaches at the youth and middle school level.  It is the key ingredient in running an elite High School program.  Besides, youth wrestling around the country starts in November.  Why should we extend or cut our seasons short because a few programs aren't willing/able to keep up with the rest of the country's schedule?  That would be taking a huge step backwards for our state.  My advice is to get more help and start earlier. 

[raidercoach 51]

Naples, do you really want the entire youth tournament to be rescheduled because your team doesn't have enough coaches?  Instead of suggesting everyone adjust to your deficiencies and/or minimizing the state tournament, why don't you recruit some more youth and middle school coaches?  The best teams in the country have coaching staffs at every level....that's what you should strive towards. 

[JCB 2]

MLee these challenges not only impact the West, but South Central and Eastern KY.  The lack of resources(no only coaches, but mats, practice area and finances(unnecessary AAU cost, travel to tournaments,  ) of rural areas  has been discussed from the beginning of the organization of the youth association.    In was made clear the importance of keeping the Elementary State Tournament the first week of March from the beginning of the forming of the association.  However, by  the choices and decision of the association, overtime it has became very clear to the rural areas of Kentucky the association has no interest of growing youth wrestling for Kentucky, but promoting the Urban NKY Youth Wrestling agenda.    This personal agenda clearly been seen in moving the Elementary State Tournament up two weeks and where the revenue of the state tournament has gone.  If my memory is correct the first elementary tournament was held at Lure County (05), McCreary County (06) Corner (07), Johnson County (08), Fern Creek, (09), Campbell County (10) and Corner again (11).  You can see 4 out of the last 5 tournaments have benefited NKY Programs. 

Last, MLee how would extending the youth program till March be a Hugh step backward?  I believe the Ohio TC is held in April.

[raidercoach 51]

I think assuming there is an agenda by NKY youth wrestling to keep the rural parts of the state from developing better youth teams is preposterous and borderline paranoid.  I personally know almost everyone involved with NKY wrestling and can tell you that everyone I know shares a vision of promoting the development of wrestling in Kentucky.     

[JCB 2]

First, I do not feel NKY Youth wrestling agenda is to " keep rural parts of the state from developing better youth teams" (not sure where you got that from) but, the NKY agenda is to push their personal agenda over the development of youth wrestling in Kentucky.  Just follow the money, it takes you to the where the agenda. 

[MLee 68]

JCB,

I'm not sure where to begin.  I post a topic hoping to get ideas on how to improve our state tournament, and it seems all some want to talk about is the excuses on why their program cannot keep up w/ others.

 

Regardless of what you may believe, these elite programs have developed by the result of hard work, not by resource advantages.  We've paid for our mats, singlets, and supplies by running a tournament every year, not by a trust fund or hefty donation by an alum.  Our team and parents spent countless hours planning and hosting our Rumble tournament this season, which has helped us purchase everything we have and need.   

However let's just pretend what you're saying is correct.  There is an agenda/conspiracy against rural KY (which I find comical).  Isn't hard work and overcoming the odds core values taught in our sport? 

 

And to answer your question.  I would have more concerns w/ shortening the season than extending it, although I have issues w/ both.  Baseball season starts in March.  I think having less or no overlap w/ other sports is a good idea.  Also, by year end, our program will have wrestled in 13 tournaments.  That is a lot for youth.  I'd be afraid of burnout if we had 3 more weeks. Finally, having the tournament at the Convention Center is a blessing.  I'd hate to go back to a high school gym after having there for the last few years.  That would be like going back to Atherton High School.

And by the way, Johnson County and Fern Creek are not NKY programs.  Not sure how you came up w/ 4 of 5.  It is 3 of 7 (according to your history).

[raidercoach 51]

JCB,

I just reviewed some of your past posts and it is clear you are hell bent on trying to convice people on this site that Louisville and NKY intentionally try to push their "agenda" over the needs of rural KY teams.  I don't know you personally, but you should take a glance at your past posts to see how hung up on this topic you have been.  Ultimately, it is the "agenda" of every team to develop their team to the best of their ability within the framework of the state association.  Obviously, some teams have found a way to be successful while others have not...such is life.  All of the people I have met within the state association have the best intentions and you are implying otherwise with no evidence, but to say follow the money.  As Coach Lee stated, I can't speak for every Louisville and NKY team, but Raider Youth is well supported by the hard work of the entire Raider community.

[JCB 2]

MLee if you review my original post I listed below you will see several of the concerns and positives I personally had and feel many others had with the elementary state tournament last year.  In addition, I listed a few positives about last years tournament. 

My Post "Last year state tournament at Frankfort was worst experience that we have had at any of the Elementary Tournaments.  Below is a few example of the chaos of last year tournament.  Teams was given 4 coaches passes with I believe 16 or 20 different wrestling areas.  These 16 / 20 different wrestling areas was made up of 1/ 4 of a mat.  Having larger & older  wrestlers wrestling on only a forth of a mat just does not work.  In addition, larger kids wrestled beside of much smaller kids.  The concessions offered was poor and costly. 

Positives:  I saw many of the young wrestlers at the high school state tournament.  The large number of wrestlers. " 

Then you replied "Adjusting the mat sizes (really the amount of mats) is tricky.  I'd be concerned about hosting a 1 day tournament w/ 1,000 kids (give or take) on only 12 mats or less.  Indeed, the kids have more space to wrestle, and one could argue less out of bounds time could help speed up the matches.  Also, there would be less tables and table workers, which continues to be an issue for the youth tournament.  I'm just not sure we'll have enough time to complete the tourney at a reasonable time.   

We are going to give more passes for the coaches, but will insist they and the wrestlers sit in the designated seating areas assigned to their mat until called.  We're hopeful this will help cut back on the floor chaos. 

The food situation is what it is.  Until it gets changed, like Ranger said, we're at their mercy. "

In your reply above I felt like you had identified many of my concerns and was working to improve on them.

However, in your reply to naplesme (Naples, I'm not sure what else to call the tournament.  Also, not sure I understand why these challenges only have an impact on your area.  Please explain.  I know programs in our region (NKY) have aggressively recruited help to have coaches at all levels.  Almost all top programs in any state have multiple coaches at the youth and middle school level.  It is the key ingredient in running an elite High School program.  Besides, youth wrestling around the country starts in November.  Why should we extend or cut our seasons short because a few programs aren't willing/able to keep up with the rest of the country's schedule?  That would be taking a huge step backwards for our state.  My advice is to get more help and start earlier.) I felt like you attacked naplesme with your elitist, arrogant, ideology with little understanding of the situation.  In my post I attempted to show that many parts of Kentucky have issues with moving the state tournament date up 3 weeks.  Due to more reasons other then just coaching issues.  The raidercaoch posted ( I think assuming there is an agenda by NKY youth wrestling to keep the rural parts of the state from developing better youth teams is preposterous and borderline paranoid.  I personally know almost everyone involved with NKY wrestling and can tell you that everyone I know shares a vision of promoting the development of wrestling in Kentucky. ) This was a poor attempt of raidercoach to refram my post into something it was not.  I replied to raidercoach post with, (First, I do not feel NKY Youth wrestling agenda is to " keep rural parts of the state from developing better youth teams" (not sure where you got that from) but, the NKY agenda is to push their personal agenda over the development of youth wrestling in Kentucky.  Just follow the money, it takes you to where the agenda ends.  ) which I though was simple and clear.  Then you replied with (However let's just pretend what you're saying is correct.  There is an agenda/conspiracy against rural KY (which I find comical).  Isn't hard work and overcoming the odds core values taught in our sport?  ) I also find it comical and another poor attempt to attack me and re-frame what I said into something you can belittle.  For the second time NKY teams controlling the association  does not care one way or another about any other wrestling program be it rural or Urban period.  NKY teams controlling the association only care about self promotion. 

Last, if the association has not been taken over by the NKY and the association is working in the growth and development of Kentucky Wrestling why is back to back elementary state money going to NKY teams?  That had not happened before in the history.  That was the point of my post regarding previous tournament.  The money had in the past been spread around the state. 

[JCB 2]

raidercoach

Raidercoach in on why have I attempted to belittle all the hard work which goes into developing a successful wrestling program.  I personally believe Campbell, Corner, River City, Union and many other have become successful due to the hard work of coaches, kids and parents and are bench marks programs to model.  In addition, I respect you and MLee for many reason one being your user name allows people to know who you are thus not hiding behind screen names.  However, the fact are what the are and that is the association had not work to develop wrestling through out Kentucky.  In my opinion the association had work more for self development and created hoops to limited participation.  The best example of that is requiring all AAU Cards in by 1-1-11 our program can not wrestle in the tournaments.  Many of the rural teams have not stated by the 1st of January.  That 7 weeks before the state tournament. 

[MLee 68]

JCB,

In addition, I listed a few positives about last years tournament. 

My Post "Last year state tournament at Frankfort was worst experience that we have had at any of the Elementary Tournaments.  Below is a few example of the chaos of last year tournament.  If that is your definition of positive, I'd hate to see your list of negatives.  Sorry, I don't mean to be rude.  I just found that funny.

I have no idea what your definition of NKY is and what association you're referring to and how NKY is controlling it.  The President, who does an outstanding job in my opinion, is from North Oldham...not NKY.  I believe the next President (who was ELECTED) is from Trinity, once again not NKY.     

As far as 3 NKY programs hosting the state tournament in 7 years, I'm not sure that is a bad ratio.  All 3 programs (Conner, Campbell County, and Raiders) are larger programs that have the muscle to handle such a large task.  I believe you are too caught up on where the programs are from versus the size of each.  I will be honest with you.  I was 50/50 whether I wanted our program to even take it on.  It is a huge responsibility w/ hours and hours of effort from dozens of workers.  The host team deserves every penny they earn running it.  We've been working on it since November.  If you'd like to handle it, come to the meetings and volunteer your team. 

If anyone else has any other suggestions on improving the Youth State Tournament this year, please post.  It is not too late to implement changes.  I have a meeting w/ the Director of the Convention Center this week to discuss a few topics and create a diagram of the floor. 

[stanmms 4]

I applaud Mlee for asking for suggestions on how to improve the state tournament.  The WKY situation has been discussed at length.  There is in fact several WKY teams that attend the state tournament in Frankfort, kick butt, take names and go home. 

I have personally attended every youth meeting, but one due to a death in my family, and never has a WKY team shown up to discuss the date and time of the tournament.  Union Co. reps have shown up for several meetings but their argument was for a bracketed tournament with a state champ per weight class.  We accomplished this by going to the 10% rule thereby crowning a state champ per weight.

There is not one current board member from NKY.

Hosting the state tournament is simple.  Show up at meetings, host tournaments to prove you have the manpower to host the state tournament, and put your name on the list to host.  Then take the heat for everything you did wrong you thought you were doing right.  The past host teams can tell you it's no picnic.  You need well over 100 volunteers, a tournament director willing to put in at least 100 hours of personal time, and extremely hard working parents that don't even get to see their kids wrestle in the State Tournament because they are more concerned that the rest of the state is able to enjoy themselves.

You say "follow the money", I say follow the people actively involved in youth wrestling who show up for meetings, vote on these issues, and then dig in to get it done.

We all welcome your involvement.  See you at the Spring meeting.

[JCB 2]

Stan I have went through the process of holding a elementary state tournament and you are correct that it's very hard work and a reward-less task. 

However, you say "Hosting the state tournament is simple" reviewing the requirements you listed below with the location being Frankfort how many elementary program would you say would be able to handle hosting.  I would guess less then 10.  To me that is just another example of the rich getting richer.    Not sure how that promotes wrestling through out Kentucky.

"Hosting the state tournament is simple.  Show up at meetings, host tournaments to prove you have the manpower to host the state tournament, and put your name on the list to host.  Then take the heat for everything you did wrong you thought you were doing right.  The past host teams can tell you it's no picnic.  You need well over 100 volunteers, a tournament director willing to put in at least 100 hours of personal time, and extremely hard working parents that don't even get to see their kids wrestle in the State Tournament because they are more concerned that the rest of the state is able to enjoy themselves."

 

[CBender 17]

Hello all.  This is my son's 3rd year with youth state wrestling and it will be our 3rd year wrestling the state tourney.  We wrestle with Bluegrass.  I personally appreciate MLee taking the time to ask for opinions on the state format, and I appreciate them hosting.  We're what I would categorize as a moderate size club, and we have participants that regularly travel out of state to wrestle.  That being said, we have nowhere near the resource or parental involvement necessary to take on a tourney that size, and I applaud them for being able to pull it off.

Here are my thoughts on what I've experienced at state and view as weak points vs. tournaments in other locations:

1.  Start time - events that we regularly attend in KY, including past state tournaments but also numerous other tournaments/events, tend to start well behind schedule, which frustrates parents and causes long days and lack of focus for the kids.  The start delay is usually significant, often at least an hour.  Having never constructed or run a tourney, I don't know what it would take to be more rigid with start times in general, whether it's more tourney manpower, info on wrestlers turned in sooner, examining the way scratches get treated, brackets get built, etc.  But when I compare it to tournaments my son participates in in Ohio, the way the way event start times and no-shows are handled are very different here in KY.

2.  Given that the event often runs behind, the "faceoff" before the finals usually puts it even further off schedule.  I know it's fun, it's "for the kids", and I'm sure most of the kids like their 10 seconds in the spotlight.  But at a 1000 kid tourney I think it's impractical, too long, and probably a luxury best reserved for smaller tournaments with smoother scheduling.  It's the only tourney we have ever participated in that does it.

3.  Usually the tourneys we've attended in Ohio have a morning and an afternoon session.  However, several we've attended this year have broken into 3 sessions, morning, mid day, and a bit later afternoon, and I think those tourneys have all run very smoothly.  Has an extra session split been given any consideration?

Mat surfaces - 16-20 surfaces is a must for a tourney the size of State.  1/2 mats are great for 11-12 year old brackets if you can get it, but not at a cost of reduction of surfaces to 12 or fewer.

Designated staging area for wrestlers -  good idea.  You get called, you're not in the staging area, you get bumped for the next pairing.  You get back in the queue and get called again in time to finish the bracket round, and you're still not there, you scratch and the mat moves on.  You could apply some judgement and patience to this for the younger kids, but there's no reason 9-12 year old kids couldn't understand and meet this rule.