Discussion: Fargo & State

[Mr Granby 0]

i would think the pressure would still be on at state. its your state!! you are representing yourself and trying to declair that no matter what im the best in the state. and you can say that, but at fargo all you can say is "im the best at fargo" im the best out of who decided to go. there might still be someone out there better but ill never know because that person didnt "man up" and come. and i agree it comes down to the wrestler, if the wrestler loves giving up his summer to spend alot of money to travel to these tournys, than fargo is where he belongs. but if the kid likes to bust his butt in season, put in the time when the time comes, but also has maybe another passion, whos to say that state should mean nothing to that kid compared to fargo. i would like to see someone go up to harrison courtney and say your 4 state titles are nothing compared to the kid that won fargo last year.

Lol your funny. Or you can say im the best in the NATION.  ha

[dinubus 2]

Is there anyone on this site that is not crystal clear on the fact that Fargo is by far harder than our state tournament?  No, I didn't think so.  Dinubus, why are you beating this dead horse?  Everyone knows this.  Yes, it poops all over our state tournament.  But some kids are just weird and know this but still just aspire to be a state champ.  Some kids  :-o :-o :-o don't even like to wrestle freestyle or want to wrestle in college.  Some of those kids go to sleep every night dreaming of being a Ky state champ, and don't know or think anything about Fargo.  That doesn't make these kids wrong.  But they will still feel a lot of pressure at state when the time comes.  Don't get your feelings hurt, I'm just respectfully presenting you with another perspective.

Sorry you are so thick that you didn't realize this, but you are the one beating a dead horse.  I was not even commenting on what was previously discussed, just answering in shock at what one of our youth stated on the subject.  Please re-read and re-assess yourself.

[Charger Coach 14]

Okay, I don't wish this to get moved over to the Fargo thread and cover up the accomplishments of the three KY wrestlers with a drive to become an All American or at least give it a shot and get good competition, so this will be my last post on this topic.  Evidently you all, having been KY wrestlers yourselves, know more about the drive of other KY wrestlers than me.  I guess I just expect more drive than is available here and I need to get used to more apathy.  Thanks for clearing this all up Ranger, GOO, Dragon Master, and of course Guru.

Well, I didn't wrestle in KY, I wrestled in IN.  I was a decent wrestler, but far from great.  I did make it to semi-state after only my 2nd year of wrestling and was 1 match away from going to state, which in IN, I think is a pretty nice accomplishment.  I wanted to be a state champ.  Being an AA would be nice, no doubt, but I had to be honest with myself.  I would have been destroyed by some of those kids so although being an AA would be great and all, being a state champ was my foremost goal.  I was much better at football and that's where my priorities were so I gave up wrestling after that year.  I made all-state and started thinking bigger like college.  I went to college and played football and made all-conference, but that's it.  I realized I wasn't good enough to play at the next level so that's where it ended.  I guess my point is that my situation, both in wrestling and football at least in my opinion, would be what "most" kids' situations or mindsets are.

    Honestly, when you all were little kids, which one of you didn't dream of a situation like the World Series, bottom of the ninth, two outs, down by three, bases loaded, etc or whatever a similar situation might have been for the sport you loved most?  But once kids begin to move forward in their organized sports careers, dreams and aspirations change.  That's what I was trying to say.  That's when priorities begin to depend on the what the individual wants and that's where I think priorites can't be generalized, i.e. state champ or AA for wrestling in high school, AA or NCAA champ for college, etc.

    On a side note, congrats to John, Caleb and Jordan.  You represented KY well.  Looking forward to seeing these kids wrestle this year and for years to come.

[Zeus 117]

Ok please note that my whole intention in coaching (and I coach at the youth level) is to develop the sport in Kentucky.  To make Kentucky a stronger wrestling state.

As far as a state title comparing to a fargo title it really is up to the individual and the situation.  Take Ken Chertow as an example.  He was a 2x state champ in WV, won fargo (in both free and greco), was a 3x NCAA All-American and an Olympian.  When talking to him one time he said his most memorable experience in wrestling was winning his first state title because it was his first major accomplishment and the culmination of all the hard work he had put in; he had achieved his goal.  The year before he had gone to NCAA's and it was then he decided to wrestle in college because he loved the excitement (if you haven't been to NCAA's you're missing out big time).  This situation is probably very common in wrestling.  However to make the sport grow in Kentucky we have to look past the high school state tournament.  It is my opinion that if my kid's goal is to be an NCAA champ or an Olympian then the state titles will take care of themselves.  That doesn't take away any of their significance but it is just a step in the larger picture.  We have to get our minds out of only competing in KY.  Take Brent Metcalf, Dustin Schlatter or anybody else on that level.  I guarantee you their ultimate goal is to be the best in the world.  And you know what?  Both are 4x state champs as well as NCAA champs (already) and probably will win another this year each.

The mentality I am trying to develop is to set your goals as high as possible, and do whatever it takes to get there.  As a high school kid the best you can possibly do is to win fargo, senior nationals, beast of the east, reno t of c, ironman and other elite national tournaments.  If I had won beast of the east and not state would I be disappointed?  Sure but my season still would have been a success.  In fact I would say that winning beast of the east is a greater accomplishment than a state title, at least in KY.

So I guess I agree with dinubus and Mr Granby by saying that I would rather be an All-American than a state champ, if I had to choose, which is what this debate has turned into.  In fact I would probably trade 2 or 3 state titles for a fargo championship, or senior nationals.  Would I get the name recognition around the state?  No but I would know that I accomplished a much harder task in winning those national tournaments.  But my whole point beyond this debate is if we limit our thinking to just winning state titles then most of us are going to fall short.  It's the ones that strive to be the best in the country who wind up winning multiple state titles.  Kyle Ruschell is a great example.  He was focused on the bigger picture and the little details just happened on the way.  One of my high school teachers had a sign in her room.  I hated her class but it was a good poster.  "Reach for the stars.  You may not always get one, but you won't come up with a handful of dirt either."  With that in mind I'll leave you with this scenario.  We all have, or should have, goals.  Let's face it, most of us fall a little short if we really push ourselves.  If my goal is to place at sate then realistically I'm probably going to fall one or two matches short, or at least place low.  If my goal is to place 3rd then I'll probably place anywhere from 3-6.  If my goal is to win it then I'll probably place high (top 4).  However if my goal is to win a tough national tournament and fall short then I'll probably win a state title.  The important thing is the mentality you have when training for your goal.  We have to expand our thinking past just winning state titles.

Sorry I rambled, which I tend to do when I feel strongly about something.  Please anyone feel free to comment.

[Charger Coach 14]

    jpizar83, nice post and I agree to a point.  You also helped to make my point.  What a kid's priority might be depends on that kid as you also stated.  Your priority, as well as dinibus and Mr. Granby, was to be an AA.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I respect that, but as a whole, I think that most kids of high school wrestling age don't share that same goal.  Should a kid set his goals as high as possible, absolutely!  However, the simple fact is that not every kid can be Cael Sanderson, Ken Chertow, Dan Gable, etc so setting goals of being an AA, NCAA champ or whatever simple aren't feasable let alone reasonable.  There's also nothing wrong with a kid setting his goal as simply making state, or going a little higher and even setting his goal as placing or beyond because those goals are as high as possible for them.

    Like I've stated before, I wrestled in IN, but have become a part of the wrestling community in KY since I coached here.  I would like to see the state of KY become more prominent on the national level as well and would like to see the sport grow much larger in this state.  Would kids competing and excelling on the national level help that cause, sure it would to a point, but if we want the sport to grow in this state (and this has been a debate on this site before), we need to develop more avenues in the state for kids, like more youth programs, high school programs and yes, even college wrestling, but of all these, first and foremost should be youth programs.  A lot of little people around the state don't know about some of the great wrestlers in this state past and present except for kids/parents/coaches/fans currently in the wrestling community.  Let's face it, a lot of kids know about Kentuckians in college and in the pros in sports like baseball, football, basketball, etc even if they're not into that sport simply because there is more mainstream exposure.  I see regular season baseball, football, etc games played on TV and covered in the media all the time, but not wrestling unless it's the postseason (HS or NCAAs) or Olympics.  Since wrestling will probably never achieve that same national exposure, it takes the people currently in the wrestling community to recruit kids and get them into wrestling first, not getting kids placing high at national tournaments.  The more kids that are in the sport, the more exposure it will gain and so on.  It's a vicious cycle.

[dinubus 2]

jpizar83's post is exactly what I was stating as he said we need to start looking beyond the state to grow the state.  Dragon Master, we never stated that our priority was to be an AA.  Actually, I planned on being an Olympic Champion.  That was my whole goal.  Too bad I broke my neck while still in my senior year in high school and was told that if I kept wrestling I would be paralyzed.  The height of the goal is what matters.  We need to have our youth think big.  You don't always have to reach your highest goal, but without setting that highest goal, we will never accomplish the littler things like becoming a state champion. 

[eville dad 17]

I think the State Title would provide more attention for the individual due to the fact most people in and out of wrestling circles can relate to a state title but few people know what the tournament in Fargo is about.

So I think the State Title could be the most rewarding because it would be accomplished in front of all the local friends and competitors. I'm not saying to AA would not be rewarding just that it doesn't carry the same type of recognition.

I would like to point out how difficult it is for a wrestler from KY to AA in any national event but especially in Greco or Freestyle. The styles of wrestling such as FS or Greco are just enough different that a good Folkstyle wrestler can compete in either style and do very well. But it becomes increasingly difficult to win against the better wrestlers because they typically have more experience and better training at the particular style. So my point is the good folkstyle wrestlers with little experience at FS or Greco can hold their own in FS or Greco against the average to good wrestler. However to beat the elite is another story. The elite in FS and Greco possess superior skills in the other styles and that becomes the difference, I thought this to be especially true in Greco. Theres a skill level in each style that seperates the best from the rest.

The KY kids that have done well at Fargo are to be commended because it really is an exceptional accomplishment to survive as long in the tourney as they have. I think its the lack of special training in the particular style that keeps our kids from attaining the AA status.

[TheGuru 0]

A lot of good points on here.  I agree that kids who have dreams of wrestling at the next level need to compete nationally.  I would say our kids have done a great job going to the various folkstyle nationals like the NHSCA nationals.  But I don't believe we have that strong of freestyle wrestling in this state yet to interest many kids in driving 15 hours to fargo to compete at nationals for fs/gr.  But our best h.s. state champs are competing every year to be an all american in Virginia Beach and now we are seeing middle school & elementary kids make it there in good numbers.  Keep it up guys!

[dinubus 2]

We need more competitors with the desire and more parents with the support and willingness to participate in the areas needed.  It is obvious we have a bunch of excuses and nothing else.  It is sad when Alaska sends 14 total competitors when it costs them a lot more to come and their total state population is less than 7 hundred thousand and we compare this to Kentucky's 3 total competitors with a total state population closer to 7 million.

And Guru, what is a good showing at the Folkstyle nationals?  How did we reach this?

[TheGuru 0]

We need more competitors with the desire and more parents with the support and willingness to participate in the areas needed.  It is obvious we have a bunch of excuses and nothing else.  It is sad when Alaska sends 14 total competitors when it costs them a lot more to come and their total state population is less than 7 hundred thousand and we compare this to Kentucky's 3 total competitors with a total state population closer to 7 million.

And Guru, what is a good showing at the Folkstyle nationals?  How did we reach this?

Wow, I've never conversed with a more argumentative person in my life.  You win man.  We didn't have a good showing at Folkstyle nationals.  I bet you suck the life out of every one around you.

[Charger Coach 14]

jpizar83's post is exactly what I was stating as he said we need to start looking beyond the state to grow the state.  Dragon Master, we never stated that our priority was to be an AA.  Actually, I planned on being an Olympic Champion.  That was my whole goal.  Too bad I broke my neck while still in my senior year in high school and was told that if I kept wrestling I would be paralyzed.  The height of the goal is what matters.  We need to have our youth think big.  You don't always have to reach your highest goal, but without setting that highest goal, we will never accomplish the littler things like becoming a state champion. 

    Alright then, how about this, jpizar83, Mr. Granby & yourself placed more "emphasis" on being an AA instead of a state champ.  Is that better?  Listen, I'm not saying your wrong so don't get your panties in a bunch.  I respect your opinion, but it's just, that your opinion and I don't agree with it.  Likewise, many may not agree with my opinion of which you're obviously one.  Setting your goals high was what you preferred to do so great.  Hopefully that worked out for you.  I was different.  I started out with smaller, more obtainable goals.  As I reached those, I set my sights higher.  I would have loved to play pro football, but it didn't happen.  That was a goal of mine since I was 10 years old, but I wasn't good enough.  That would have been the ultimate.  However, my first goal was to start for my high school team.  I accomplished that goal and it gave me a sense of satisfaction that I had done something.  Next I set my goal to make all-conference which I also accomplished.  Once again, I gained a sense of satisfaction.  Then I went for all-state and I accomplished that.  Then my goals became playing in college, etc.  Do you see what I'm getting at here?  Setting my goals at a "littler" level helped me to obtain some of those, which gave me the confidence to think bigger.  That's what worked for me.  Was I a failure since I didn't play professionally?  The answer is hell no.  I reached a lot of my goals and I'm proud of that.  So once again, to my original point, the emphasis, priority, or whatever you want to call it, depends on the individual and can't be a generalized statement.  To back up my point, I was very fortunate to coach an individual who as an 8th grader won 2 matches and again as a freshman only won 2 matches.  He set his goal to make it to state his sophomore year and he did that.  The next year, he set his goal higher and wanted to be a state champ and he did that.  That's when he began to think even bigger like achieving AA status.  It never happened, but he had the satisfaction of knowing he was a state champ and that was a goal of his that he obtained.

    I mean no offense when I ask this so please don't take this the wrong way, but did you have any other goals than to be an AA and if you didn't, do you feel like a failure since you obviously didn't achieve that, but might have accomplished other "littler" things like being a state champ?

[dinubus 2]

Actually I was an All American, just not a Fargo All American.  I won the AAU Schoolboy, Cadet, and Junior Nationals.  However, as I already stated, my longstanding goal was the Olympics.  Yes, I did have smaller goals as well, that I saw would build toward my longstanding goal.  State Champion and All American were goals that I reached.  The Fargo Nationals would have been far better, but I only went once during my Junior year and didn't realize I should cut weight.  I had thought AAU was tougher than USA as I had hit better competition in the Detroit area with AAU.  Anyway, I lost out to the 3rd and 6th placer each by 1 point while going my natural weight.

So, all in all, you did have a longsighted goal with football which was your primary sport.  That is what we have been talking about.  State Champion is the type of longsighted goals these kids have thusfar looked at.  They don't see that wrestling can be a part of their lives even after college.  Having longsighted goals beyond highschool is what the competitors with wrestling as their primary sport should have.  They need it to consume them and push them past the walls they build.  You should know that with what you stated about Football.  Is it a bad thing that you didn't reach your longstanding goal?  No, it would have been nice to do, but it didn't kill you not to.  However, would you have met all those short term goals without having set the longterm goal?  No.  That is pure and simple psychology.

[Ranger123 43]

Guys, why don't you just give up.  Realize that the all powerful Oz (aka dinubus) is smarter, more educated, a better wrestler, bigger, stronger, faster, and probably better looking than all of us.  :wink:  We are technically not worthy to communicate with him, but he allows us bask in his knowledge occasionally on this site just so we can maybe, every once in a great while, drill some of his great pearls of knowledge into our little brains.  I know it is hard for us to understand, with our uneducated minds and minuscule IQs, but he knows best.

[Ranger123 43]

Okay, back to reality, give up on it.  dinubus will never entertain the idea that someone else has a good point or may understand something close to the level that he does.  it is always his way or you are an idiot.

[Just Wrestle 0]

Im sure I missed this somewhere, but how did Fahy do in Fargo?

[Just Wrestle 0]

Nevermind, just found it.

[Kentucky10 0]

Under your idealogy Kentucky10, no one should go to the Olympics, because all you can say is that "I'm the best at the Olympics" there could be someone better, but they didn't "man up" and come.  What a stupid perspective on it.

no, i didn't say anything on no one should go to fargo, i said it depends on the wrestler. and in the olympics your representing your country, moron. im actually glad you broke your neck cuz i would hate to think that you would be one of the few to represent our country on a level that is suppose to have wrestlers with the upmost respect, something you lack. im not saying i do, but then again my goal isnt to get to the olympics haha.

[dinubus 2]

I hope you don't break your neck, it isn't something anyone deserves to deal with.

[Kentucky10 0]

I hope you don't break your neck, it isn't something anyone deserves to deal with.

good i hope i don't either. does it mean im going to have sympathy for you breaking yours? no, things get broken, people get hurt, people die, etc im not going to preach i dont believe in it, but it seems to me that you are looking for respect in the wrong ways. you need to cope that u will never wrestle in the olympics, and that wrestling is not that big of a deal to be beat up over it and to hurt in the heart everytime u think, "damn i could have been in the olympics" i feel for you, im sorry you didn't obtain your goal but life is life man, you got to take what it gives you and improvise.

[dinubus 2]

tisk tisk tisk, do your parents know that you are such a sad boy? 

[matrat 0]

dude mack chill out man the man is saying he doesnt want ur high school wrestling to end because of sumthing that could happen to u dude because i want to be in the olypics one day man and just because u dnt doesnt me u wish that upon anyone else dude i mean dnt have to put that on anyone man

[Zeus 117]

To get back on topic... If a person's goals is only to be a state champion then that's fine, honestly.  However, for the most part, the best way to achieve greatness (NCAA titles, Olympian) is to have a goal that is almost unattainable.  There should be smaller objectives along the way for sure (make it to state, place, state champ, etc.)  I don't think you'll are quite getting my point though.  A state title is obviously a huge accomplishment, something I came just short of.  The vast majority of All-Americans and NCAA champs though have won multiple state titles.  So we're arguing over which is better or which would you pick, a state title or AA honors.  If you get to be an AA at fargo then I can almost guarantee you that you'll win a state title.  The problem with raising your goals as you achieve them is you don't always know what's more that you can achieve.  Obviously most people know that there are NCAA champs every year but not everyone really thinks they have a realistic shot at doing it themselves.  By raising your goals as you go along you're almost creating a glass ceiling for yourself.  We have to change the mentality of wrestlers in our state; show them that being a national champ is possible for them too, not just for people in PA, OH, CA, IA, IL etc.

In order to be able to compete nationally in freestyle then we need to wrestle it more.  Instead of folkstyle tournaments in the off-season we should be having freestyle ones.  I agree it's probably not worth it to someone just starting out wrestling freestyle to go to fargo because they might win one match.  That's a long trip for only 3 matches.

I like this debate because we're bouncing ideas off each other but hope that everyone can debate in a civilized manner.  Again please feel free to comment.

[TheGuru 0]

In order to be able to compete nationally in freestyle then we need to wrestle it more.  Instead of folkstyle tournaments in the off-season we should be having freestyle ones.  I agree it's probably not worth it to someone just starting out wrestling freestyle to go to fargo because they might win one match.  That's a long trip for only 3 matches.

I agree with you here.  I also think this is already happening, maybe just not as fast as people would like.  In the past few years this state has gone from practically zero off season fs/gr tournaments to a handful or more.  I would say that's not enough but it's going in the right direction.  If you think about it, we ARE seeing our kids step up and go to nationals more and more in the off season just not Fargo.  As fs/gr grows in this state you'll see more kids going out to Fargo. 

[YKC93 0]

I think Kentucky should put together a frestyle Duals team to take to national Duals and fargo.

here we could see where we are at Nationally. although it would be frestyle.

[Zeus 117]

I think Kentucky should put together a frestyle Duals team to take to national Duals and fargo.

here we could see where we are at Nationally. although it would be frestyle.

Agree completely.  Anyone know how this can be done?  McCoy or Keith Smith?