State Tournament

[grappler-of-old 44]

So you guys pick a location and we'll let Pioneer or Grappler pay for the first round' date=' haha![/quote']

Hey!!!! :shock:

How come I gotta pay for the first round? I'll just take my pepsi and sit in the corner.

[Lowsingle 9]

The arguements can go on forever about which system would work the best. I myself am a product of the old 16 man bracket system. I wrestled in the old lexington region which had something like 7 or 8 state champs my senior year including myself. The benefits from the old system are that (1) it is more challenging to make it to the state tournament, (2) it elimates having wrestlers there that aren't qualified enough to be there, (3) it shortens the tournament and takes away the first day of wrestling. Some kids are making it the state tournament simply because they only have 4 guys in their weight class at regionals. These kids are getting pinned and techfalled in the first round and also getting smashed in the consolation bracket. There are also some flaws of the old system. One of the most important is that some regions thought that their alternates were better than some wrestlers at the tournament. For example in 1999 our 189lb 5th placer at regionals was John Dials from sheldon clark, he got to go to state as an alternate and ended up placing 5th at state that year, he later went on to win state his senior year at 215. our There are also benits as wells as flaws for the new system which have all already been discussed on here. But overall goal as a state needs to be to grow and expand. Wrestling is the hardest sport to get a kid to try out for. Small schools who want to start programs aren't going to if they have no chance of sending kids to compete at the state tournament in the first couple years of the program. More schools are starting programs now that we have the new system, more kids are coming out for wrestling now that they feel that they have a chance to compete at the state level. This years state tournament looked very competitive, there seemed to be a lot of athletic kids there and the talent seems like its getting deeper and deeper each year. As long as wrestling is growing state wide we should all be happy. Its hard to support a dying sport and we need to encourage growth and development and not argue about how hard it is to qualify for the tournament, the best wrestlers will show out at the end.

[Ranger123 43]

grappler - something to consider on your point #1, under the old system the region I competed in included: Woodford, South Oldham, Oldham, Harrison, Sheldon Clark, and all of the Lexington schools to name a few. That would leave out some pretty tough 5th place finishers.

Plus, I think the new program argument has a lot of merit. When a new team can work hard and have a chance to send some kids to the big show there is a chance to hit the ground running and build teams more quickly. Example, Newport has a new team in a tough region with a lot of young wrestlers and no state qualifiers. There was lots of excitement about the program early in the season, especially when Boxx won the conference. But too many years without a state qualifier and that will spell trouble. Kids will lose interest and the school might as well.

[lucky1 0]

Well thank God that's over...Jeesh.

I know I'm not as qualified as some posters on this site , but I have a question I'm interested to get anyone's thoughts on: Have many of you been to both a Ky state tourney and say an Ohio? Or Indiana? Or any other states? How do they compare? I followed the link to the Ga tourney...NUTZZZ... We've established that comparing it to other sports is futile, but what about other states? Maybe states that have a stronger tradition (or perhaps more support) don't have the same issues...maybe they do. Anyone?

[grappler-of-old 44]

Ranger;

South Oldham and Oldham Co. were in the Nky region. Region 5 and 6 combined to make a region.

Yes it was the Lexington Region that was making this claim. However when the results were tallied, the Nky region was the one who benifited from this expansion and actually the Wky region also benifited.

[eville dad 17]

Lucky,

I went to Indianas finals last year in Conseco Field House. You have to understand its a lot bigger facility and alot more people attend but ours is very similar only on a smaller scale.

They have a really cool mat they use for the finals, it has a flag as the circle so you have alot of color red, white and blue under the mat light.

They did alot of recognition for their multi X champs. Escobedo was 4X er last year and the announcer went on and on about his career and the crowd gave him at least one standing ovation, they kind of did a slide presentation on the screen for him using pictures from years past etc... and read some prepared script about him. They also did this for a few other kids but on a lesser scale relative to their achievements. They also mentioned the colleges these kids had signed with or were considering.

Other than those two things, the two events are very similar. I think our tournament is awesome and is done very well! The kids love it and it gives lesser experienced wrestlers a chance to experience a great atmoshpere because we do let 32 kids per wt class in the event.

I would just suggest that the tournament stay the way it is but continue to enhance it when good ideas come along. Maybe a professional announcer to add some energy to the finals and a little more recognition of outstanding kids. We had 3 3X champs this year, Starks, Murton, Scherer.

I like the idea of a State Finals Mat -

who has the best mat to be used under the lights for finals?

Do any schools use mat lights for their wrestling events?

[DumpTruck 0]

Last weekend I spoke to Mr. Tackett of the KHSAA who told me the thing that matters most to me: since we have moved to the 32 man bracket the sport has grown substatially in number. He continued that it had grown in quality as well. He informed me of this when he said that of the 48 wrestlers in the semifinals there was nearly thirty teames represented. His arguments gave me the emperical proof that I needed to see that on the broad scale teams were growing in number and and quality.

Though I realize we must endure such miseries as watching some finals matches in the semi's and a three day state tounament in which the first day isn't always high quality, I believe the pros are more numerous and important. For example, when I was a junior I got fourth in the region (all four of us were ranked wrestlers) and beat a regional champion first round, who, by the way, was ranked behind me. I would not have placed in the state nor made it out of the region that year without the 32-man. More importantly, being in the out skirts of the promised land makes our young wrestlers work harder to get closer. On my former team, a 7th grader won a match at the state tourny and looked at me and said he was going to go to camps and work his butt off to do better at state next year: it made him hungry.

I understand that the current format does cause some incovieniencies, but the state champ is going to be the one who wins them all, the best wrestlers in the state will be on the medal stands (maybe a bit higher or lower that they should be), and most importantly teams are forming and getter hungry to do well in the tournament they couldn't even make it to before.

[pioneer_pride 1]

I agree with you (and Julian Tackett) that the 32 man bracket has increased the numbers...but the quality of wrestlers has improved mainly because of the increase in middle school & youth wrestling going on in the state. You're starting to see 9th graders at state that have been wrestling 4-5 years on a regular basis. 10, 15, 20 years ago, that was not very common at all. The KHSAA has had NOTHING to do with the increase in youth & middle school wrestling in this state.

Still, I like the 32 man bracket and I love the state tournament.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Evilledad:

I aslo agree that having a Ky mat for the finals would be awsome. The only problem, where do we store it? I believe the coaches assossiation has contimplated trying to buy one.

I also beleive that during the announcement of the finalists, they talked about some of the wrestlers. I think I remember them announcing that Richard Starks was a 2 X state champion and 3X state finalist prior to the match.

During the tournament they announced when a returning state champ or runner up was wrestling. You may not have heard it because you were already involved in the match.

Overall I believe that the tourney is ran quite well, and tip my hats to all those individuals involved in making it work.

[DumpTruck 0]

You know what, you a so right. I didn't even think of the youth and middle school wrestling. I was priviledged to go to the middle school state tounament and help two middle school teams this year and I got to see the future studs of the sport. I think this GREAT for the sport. Thanks for reminding me!

[pioneer_pride 1]

anytime dumptruck! ;-)

a custom mat for the finals would be AWESOME! maybe we can pass around a jar at state next year and take up a collection.

[Ranger123 43]

grappler - I seem to recall wrestling South Oldham a couple years at the regional tournament in the '90-'92 period. Anyone know if I have lost my mind or not?

[lucky1 0]

Great point about the 32 man brackets... Seems to me that going to state as a youngster and getting your butt handed to you BUT experiencing the adrenalin of it would make anyone want to work that much harder to be there next year, and the year after that... And besides, isn't three days jammed packed with wrestling pretty awesome anyway?

Here's hoping by the time my son's a 7th or 8th grader with 7 or 8 years of training under his singlet he'll get to experience that for himself! Fingers crossed... :wink:

[refdad 3]

I guess I will put my two cents worth in on this as well. I personally think a 32 man bracket does cheapen the accomplishment of making it to state but where we (kentucky) are as opposed to other states , maybe this is best at this time. Our middle school state tournament has a 16 man bracket with seeding and I would like to see the high school follow siut, but again, I want what is best overall for our state. The other thing. DUDE,! way too many "in crosscountry and in tennis"..

[ncstatequal103 0]

just an example. in north carolina, we have 4 different regions and 4 wrestlers advance from each to make a 16 man bracket. there are 4 number one seeds, and so on. all number one seeds wrestle a 4 seed and then the winner advances to wrestle the winner of a 2/3 match. with this, the earliest that two regional champs could meet is the semis. but even then they will most likely meet another regional champ in the finals.

[grappler-of-old 44]

grappler - I seem to recall wrestling South Oldham a couple years at the regional tournament in the '90-'92 period. Anyone know if I have lost my mind or not?

No you haven't lost your mind. (At least not on this one)

I did the research, (dug deeeep into the archives) :shock: I found that Oldham and S. Oldham were part of the Lexington district/region until 1997. In 1997 they were moved to the East Jeff. district/Nky region.

Seems kind of funny that they were in the Lex. district since you would have to go through Oldham Co. to get to Lexington on I71.

[Cougarwrestler 0]

HCWolverine as a former wrestler please dont ever get on here and talk about how easy it is to get to state nor how much more difficult Cross Country and Tennis are. Until you have went 6 minutes plus just keep your mouth shut about the topic.

The second thing everyone who has a problem with the 32 man bracket get over it. Its going to be like that and no matter how much people want it change the head cheeses at KHSAA wont change it. Its a good idea who cares if you dont deserve to be there the kids that dont deserve to be there are gone by Friday afternoon anyway. If you would go to the old way District, Region, State. I would have not qualified for state my Soph. year because I placed 5th in the "Confrence" aka District but then I came back and won Region. I had an off day I was sick and just had my shoulder MRI'd get over it.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Couger:

1st. Wolverene is intitled to his opinion

2nd. Things do change, why do you think it was changed in the 1st place. It started by many poeple complaining and after several years of people telling them it would not change it did.

3rd. The "Conference" AKA "NKAC" was NOT the district tournament. The district tournament is the same tournament as the Region is now a week earlier (1st weekend in Feb.) The region combined 2 districts on the second weekend in Feb. (Now that would be Regions 5 and 6. The two would make the Nky region)

You would still have made the regional tournament and probably still the state tourney.

4th Basing your belief on what best benifits yourself is not a logical way of deciding things. If this was true then we in the United States would still have Slavery, because it benifited those that owned the slaves.

Remember things do change, this is the American way of getting things done. You discuss a topic, get more people on board and then finally get your resolution passed.

[lucky1 0]

It's pretty narcissistic to think that a person who hasn't gone 6 plus minutes can't offer a valid opinion on what it means to reach the top of their sport. Ask a wrestler, they'll tell you wrestling is the toughest. Ask a runner, they'll say that cross-country is. Ask a curler, they'll say... (Anyone got a clue as to what that's all about???) My point is that we all could give a million examples why the sport we participated in (or support) is the toughest.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, wrestling has a bad rep. Not so much with the kids, but with the parents. Lets face it, the parents are the ones who decide which sport to sign little Johnny up for: basketball or wrestling, soccer or football. Wrestling isn't promoted very well, and it's image could use an overhaul. Getting on here and having discussions about how to better the sport is a start. I would say that the people who care about wrestling get a lot of ideas from this site, and take them to those "head cheeses" to try to bring about change. Seems to me like chest thumping doesn't change a whole lot for anyone.

[DumpTruck 0]

I found this interesting: wrestling has moved into the third highest revenue of high school sports in kentucky behind football and basketball. I think this is important for two reasons: (1) This means the sport is getting bigger (2) The 32-man bracket is bringing in more funds, which gives it increased desirability for the KHSAA and the wrestling community. We all know that the more money generated by the sport, the more attention it will be given (I don't mean that as a negative, just as a fact).

Also, I think the image of wresting is being imporved by the increasing amount of little league and middle school wrestling programs. A lot of new parents and kids are getting broken into the sport this way, and it is helping shatter the negative stereotypes.

[Cougarwrestler 0]

Well it was not just based on me. How about in 2001 I think Craig Cooper Jeremy Lovell and Matt Reis all in the same region one of those guys may have not mad state and I know for a fact that year they finished 1, 2, 3 in the state. Its not a valid point there is to many holes in it. On top of that a 32 man bracket is just another great way for the KHSAA to bring in money!!

[pioneer_pride 1]

Dumptruck - that is an awesome fact if it's true....where have you seen that wrestling is 3rd most in money? I also think teams hosting their own tournaments if they are ran right are a great way for schools to raise money...compared to other sports.

[DumpTruck 0]

My former wrestling coach from Johnson Central told me that he recieved that piece of information from Mr. Tackett of the KHSAA. He told me the football was first, basketball was second, wrestling was third, and a close fouth was girl's basketball. I can see this as being the case because of the 3 day state event, the large tournaments every weekend, plus the duals and tris through the week. I have not seen a list of amounts grossed by each sport, nor do I know where such a list is found, but I will take Julian's word on it

[grappler-of-old 44]

Well it was not just based on me. How about in 2001 I think Craig Cooper Jeremy Lovell and Matt Reis all in the same region one of those guys may have not mad state and I know for a fact that year they finished 1' date=' 2, 3 in the state. Its not a valid point there is to many holes in it. On top of that a 32 man bracket is just another great way for the KHSAA to bring in money!![/quote']

Couger I understand your point, but there is very little validity in the arguement. Those three individuals would still have made the state tourney and placed the same.

When Region 5 and 6 combined region 5 still took about 75% of their wrestlers to the state tourney. The second tournament before state is actually the 1st round of the state tourney. I agree that there are times when someone may not make it because of this, but it still happens (Clint Hovekamp of Ryle this year at 160).

I do agree that the 32 man bracket has been a possitive to this point, but there will be a point when it will no longer be needed. I don't think we are there yet, because schools are still adding wrestling, maybe because they can compete.

I agree with Mat-Mopper when he stated that Ky will know they have reached the upper tier when they can go back to the 16 man bracket. I know of some wrestlers in Ohio that were able to wrestle in collage with a scholarship and never made the state tourney. This is what Ky needs to shoot for.

I think we are headed in the right direction, and the more we talk about it the better we get.

[HCWolverines06 0]

Cougarwrestler,

1) I NEVER said wrestling was an easy sport physically. I have admitted that over and over. In fact, I said it was very tough.

2) What I did say is that STATISTICALLY (again, not physically) it is easier to qualify for State in wrestling than any other KHSAA sport (other than football, that is; and even in football, the first three rounds are against region competition. Only 16 teams overall out of the 200+ teams make it to the state semifinals). In terms of numbers, you can't argue that. It's indisputable. I wish you the best of luck if you want to try to prove otherwise.

3) Don't think it won't change. How many changes has state gone through in the last 20 years? That's been posted on this thead before. Most - if not all - sports have gone through some postseason change in the last five years or so. The KHSAA invokes more change than you think. People also use to think that volleyball was just a private school thing or that LexCath would never get busted for anything bad or that they would never pust Scott County and LexCath in the same region because they are so dominant. All of those things happened to change recently.

If wrestling continues to grow, something will have to change. Either by going to 16 regions instead of eight, bringing back the district-region-state scenario or creating classes. If you think it will never change, you are incredibly naive.

4) People have different views about what State is. IMO, state should be for the top talent and only for the top talent. It should be a great honor to make it to state, not a yearly ritual for more than 35 percent of all competitors. It should be tough to accomplish, not expected. If everyone (or most everyone) gets to experience something, that event loses its uniqueness, whether you want to admit it or not.

5) Just because someone hasn't done something doesn't mean they are completely ignorant on the topic or can't voice their opinion. Most of us know jack squat about how government really works, but we still get to vote about who should get to be in the government and run our towns, our state and even our country. Better than 90 percent of all people that attend UK basketball games have never played Division I ball, but they still go to games, listen to it on radio, watch it on TV, comment on it by writing to newspapers or message boards or calling in the radio. All of those people matter. I'm sure UK would agree. If not, how come you rarely - if ever - see a player, coach, school or team ever say "Who cares about our fans? They haven't been in our shoes so they don't know diddly squat and their opinions don't matter at all!" If they did that, they would alienate their fans - their most important allies - incredibly fast. Without fans (whether they know what they're tallking about or not), it is hard to make money (which wrestling is starting to do in this state more and more). Without fans (again, they may know a lot about wrestling or they may know hardly anything), it would be hard for wrestling to grow.