CoachC 115 Report post Posted March 12, 2018 Why is everyone assuming that aligning with college weights is the correct answer. I would ask the following. Is there that big of a problem with transition from high school to college in weight class? Seems like there are a significant amount of freshmen that challenge for college championships at all levels. Is there a problem with 14 weight classes? If there is, you would have to make a lagitament argument as to why. For every team that doesn't fill a weight class, there is at least 1 team that is 2 or more deep. Are you assuming every kid that wrestles in high school will go on to wrestle in college? I know that there are high level wrestlers across the country that win big tournaments that have 0 intention of wrestling in college. There is really no need to limit the ability of any kid to participate. If weight classes are eliminated, that is exactly what the result will be. Adjustments possibly, but not elimination. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 12, 2018 56 minutes ago, CoachC said: For every team that doesn't fill a weight class, there is at least 1 team that is 2 or more deep. That is hard to believe in KY because there were very few teams that were filled. I believe the legitimate argument can go back to the article at the beginning of this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 12, 2018 1 hour ago, CoachC said: Why is everyone assuming that aligning with college weights is the correct answer. I would ask the following. Is there that big of a problem with transition from high school to college in weight class? Seems like there are a significant amount of freshmen that challenge for college championships at all levels. I was wondering the same thing. Aligning the weight classes seems silly to me. Most kids move up at least one weight class every year already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachC 115 Report post Posted March 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said: That is hard to believe in KY because there were very few teams that were filled. I believe the legitimate argument can go back to the article at the beginning of this thread. Were not talking just Kentucky. We never are. This would come from the NFHS. And even if we were only talking Kentucky. The 32 man bracket at the state tournament is to big yet there is never a bye in the first round in any of the 14 weight classes. So if you eliminate even 1 weight class, you eliminate that many competitors that get to wrestle at the state tournament. Think about how that would affect the sport nationally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 So small schools in KY are SOL?? They can't get into duals because they are to small and its a waste for larger teams to wrestle them. If they do the team losses all duals and the wrestlers on those teams are left dejected, which leads to more kids quitting and a smaller team even yet. Many of those small schools have 1-3 upper level wrestlers on them and they need the competition to advance farther. I'm not sure of the answer but I am just shedding light on the obstacles of the small teams, which many are those just starting out. When the weight classes expanded to 13 then 14 those small schools became less and less competitive. And I am not sure that Ky is large enough to go to a class system yet. I will say this when the state duals were divided into classes more small school competed at the regional qualifiers. I know there are exceptions to the rule ie Union and Walton Verona and a few others. I'm not talking student population when I say small schools. I'm talking small teams. I still have a hard time believing that all the small teams in the country don't outnumber the large teams. I'm not sure but there are not that many mega schools in a lot of states. Yet it is those mega teams that dictate the policy. But I'm just an old fart that has outlived his usefulness anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachC 115 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 That's an internal problem, not a state or national problem. Changing everything because a few can't win is a foolhardy notion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 Ah but I don't think it is a few. It's not about winning its about competing and keeping kids out from all over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachC 115 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 Like I stated before. It's an internal issue. Better coaching, better youth programs, the list goes on. Besides, wrestling is an individual sport, as well as a team sport. You don't have to have 14 wrestlers to wrestle. You can wrestle with only 1 wrestler. You're basing your argument now on dual competition, the state association doesn't recognize a dual team champion. What they do offer is the possibility that every single wrestler that laces up rather it be on a team of 1 or a team of 50 can be a state champion!! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 Like I said I don't know the answer. I have been on both sides of the spectrum, part of a mega team and a small team. I have seen the problems that both sides have. I was not for the 10 wt. classes but now after hearing your argument I am leaning now more toward the 10 weight class side, because it sounds like the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. There has to be a point in the middle somewhere. But Ultimately what I think at least has little meaning in what will happen. Hopefully if the wt. classes increase or stay the same I will be proven wrong, like I was on the 32 man bracket, and this great sport will prosper. I believe that is what both (all) of us want it's just how do we get there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachZ 3 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 I don’t know the exact number of teams in Ky. If I counted correctly, there were 85 teams that qualified at least one wrestler to the state tournament. Going by these numbers, eliminating one weight class would prevent 85 kids an opportunity to wrestle during the season. 340 kids if we eliminated 4 weight classes. Kentucky wrestling can not afford to lose one opportunity for a kid to wrestle. Each wrestler is not only a competitor now but also a future coach, parent, or even fan that will give back to the sport. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
119Rider 61 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 You can't say that by eliminating a weight class we will eliminate 85 kids an opportunity when the majority of those teams do not fill a complete line up to begin with. If you raise the minimum weight, then I believe you give more kids an opportunity to be successful at a lower weight. We might not have kids walking around that can get to 106, but I am sure we have kids that get to 110. Thus making it a good starter weight for high school and a competitive one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CoachZ 3 Report post Posted March 13, 2018 Sure not all teams will fill those weight classes but are those spots not available? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
119Rider 61 Report post Posted March 14, 2018 Better yet, have the coaches committee send out a poll to all high school coaches. Ask them if they had eligible wrestlers at each weight. Find out what was the most forfeited weight last year to see where some of our problem areas seem to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nkawtg 137 Report post Posted March 14, 2018 5 of 8 State “placers” at 106 at the KHSAA State championships were 8th graders. The other 3 were freshman. Thats part of the reason wrestling is a dying sport. I fear it won’t exist in 20 years. Thank God girl’s wrestling is slowly growing as it may save the entire sport. 10 classes of competitive wrestlers is absolutely what Kentucky needs. Crowning 8th graders as state champions in watered down brackets with not a single junior or senior placing in the top 8 is absurd. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Nkawtg said: 5 of 8 State “placers” at 106 at the KHSAA State championships were 8th graders. The other 3 were freshman. Thats part of the reason wrestling is a dying sport. I fear it won’t exist in 20 years. Thank God girl’s wrestling is slowly growing as it may save the entire sport. 10 classes of competitive wrestlers is absolutely what Kentucky needs. Crowning 8th graders as state champions in watered down brackets with not a single junior or senior placing in the top 8 is absurd. I really don't understand how this is killing wrestling. How is having a freshman or middle school kid place at the state tournament hurting wrestling. Those freshman/middle school wrestlers will continue to wrestle and we loose no one because of it. Actually we gain more because of it. If they were unable to compete they will move onto something else. When I say compete I mean actually wrestle because they will not wrestle JV because there is no JV wrestling in KY to speak of. Who exactly is this hurting? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 14, 2018 Why would you even look at what grade they are in? You must be the same type of person who looks at how much a professional ballplayer makes. Who cares and why does it matter? Just enjoy the wrestling, it matters none what grade they are in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nkawtg 137 Report post Posted March 15, 2018 On 3/12/2018 at 8:44 AM, Bulldoglife said: How can you say this? We have several 10th, 11th and 12th in 106 this yaer. Look how they stack against the 8th and 9th graders.How would those guys fair in a heavier weight class. If anything 106 is showing we are doing something right on the middle school level.The smaller kids are getting Stronger and more technical. I find the 106lbers to be a fun match to watch. I can say it because not a single soph or older placed at state at 106. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nkawtg 137 Report post Posted March 15, 2018 On 3/14/2018 at 11:53 AM, grappler-of-old said: Why would you even look at what grade they are in? You must be the same type of person who looks at how much a professional ballplayer makes. Who cares and why does it matter? Just enjoy the wrestling, it matters none what grade they are in. Sure it does matter. High school sports should be for high school athletes. Times have changed. When I was competing in the mid 1990s we almost lost collegiate wrestling. We really did. Weight cutting was out of control and I fear some of those lessons have been forgotten. The sport is dying and we need to save it. Sometimes you have to cut off the dead brackets to get the plant healthy again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted March 16, 2018 5 hours ago, Nkawtg said: I can say it because not a single soph or older placed at state at 106. Have you looked at other states? We cannot go on our own and change the weight classes. That would cause a problem for those competing in other states. Here are the surrounding states states placers at 106 Ohio (8 places 3 divisions) D1---- 2 Fresh---3 Soph---1 Jr---- 2 Sr D2----2 Fresh---5 Soph---1 Jr----0 Sr. D3--- 3 Fresh---3 Soph---2 Jr---0 Sr Total 7 Fresh---11 Soph---4 Jr----2 Sr Indiana (8 places 1 Division) 3 Fresh---2 Soph---1 Jr---2 Sr. Illinois (6 places 3 Division) 3A---2 Fresh---2 Soph---1 Jr---1 Sr. 2A---3 Fresh--1 Soph--0 Jr---2 Sr. 1A--4 Fresh--1 Soph--1 Jr--0 Sr. Total 9 Fresh--4 Soph--2 Jr--3 Sr. Missouri (6 places 3 Divisions) C1---2 Fresh--1 Soph--3 Jr--0 Sr C2--1 Fresh--3 Soph--2 Jr--0 Sr C3--4 Fresh--1 Soph--1 Jr--0 Sr. Total 7 Fresh--5 Soph--6 Jr--0 Sr. Tennessee (6 placers 3 Divisions) D1AA---1 8th--1 Fresh--3 Soph--1 Jr--0 Sr. D1AAA--4 Fresh--1 Soph--0 Jr--1 Sr. D2---2 8th--2 Fresh--2 Soph--0 Jr--0 Sr. Total--- 3 8th--7 Fresh--6 Soph--1 Jr--1 Sr. West Virginia (6 placer 2 Division) AA---5 Fresh--0 Soph--0 Jr--1 Sr. AAA--4 Fresh--2 Soph--0 Jr--0 Sr Total-- 9 Fresh--2 Soph--0 Jr--1 Sr. Virginia (6 placer 6 Division) 1A--5 Fresh--1 Soph--0 Jr--0 Sr 2A--1 Fresh--1 Soph--2 Jr--1 Sr (1 no grade) 3A-- 3 Fresh--2 Soph--1 Jr--0 Sr 4A--4 Fresh--2 Soph-- 0 Jr--0 Sr 5A--0 Fresh--1 Soph--1 Jr--4 Sr 6A--0 Fresh--3 Soph--3 Jr---0 Sr Total-- 13 Fresh--10 Soph--7 Jr--5 Sr (1 ??) Grand Total 3 8th grade--55 Fresh--41 Soph--21 Jr--14 Sr (1 ??) In your mind that would mean 35 UPPERCLASSMEN would NOT place in a state tournament. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just a Coach 78 Report post Posted March 16, 2018 15 hours ago, Nkawtg said: Nkawtg, If we cut the DEAD brackets as you call them, that is like cutting off our nose to spite our face. As i add the numbers there are 167 wrestlers at 107# at the state level that would leave wrestling and go to other sports. That does not count the other wrestlers in the state at that weight class. So do we want to grow our sport or kill it? those 167 plus kids will grow up to have kids who will probably wrestle and then they start coaching the next generation. This is how we grow. If we start eliminating opportunities for kids to wrestle we start eliminating our ability to grow. 8 hours ago, grappler-of-old said: Have you looked at other states? We cannot go on our own and change the weight classes. That would cause a problem for those competing in other states. Here are the surrounding states states placers at 106 Ohio (8 places 3 divisions) Total 7 Fresh---11 Soph---4 Jr----2 Sr Indiana (8 places 1 Division) 3 Fresh---2 Soph---1 Jr---2 Sr. Illinois (6 places 3 Division) Total 9 Fresh--4 Soph--2 Jr--3 Sr. Missouri (6 places 3 Divisions). Total 7 Fresh--5 Soph--6 Jr--0 Sr. Tennessee (6 placers 3 Divisions) Total--- 3 8th--7 Fresh--6 Soph--1 Jr--1 Sr. West Virginia (6 placer 2 Division) Total-- 9 Fresh--2 Soph--0 Jr--1 Sr. Virginia (6 placer 6 Division) Total-- 13 Fresh--10 Soph--7 Jr--5 Sr (1 ??) Grand Total 3 8th grade--55 Fresh--41 Soph--21 Jr--14 Sr (1 ??) In your mind that would mean 35 UPPERCLASSMEN would NOT place in a state tournament. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
