Weight classes and weigh ins in youth wrestling

[raidercoach 51]

Blue is 9. No he doesn't cut weight. He wrestles youth tournaments at the 75lb class and weights in at 71lb every weekend. So if I was going to cut him He would make 70. He is my child and for me to make decisions for not you. But I appreciate your concern.

First off we don't just wrestle in SE Ohio. We have been to Cleveland, Akron, Medina, Minerva, and many more northern tournaments were wrestling is king. Blue has placed in everyone of them. The worst he has placed this year and last is third and that was at a WV tourney in St. Albans. So dont think we just go to Chesapeake and wrestle every weekend because that's not the case at all.

Now for your Cincinnati tournaments. We have been to the court for sports tournament and a couple others in the Mason area. he has beat every kid they have threw at him. Heard, Powell, Lugman and so on. So I agree the kids are great in this area and Blue does have his hands full but he works his tail off to get better. That's why we travel 6-7 hours a weekend to wrestle in Cleveland and Akron not to mention PA and MI. You can assure your self he is wrestling the best competition he can for a 9 year old. Now is he goingto always win NO. He hasn't this year and will more than likely lose again when we go to some of these other tough tournaments were going to. He's lost his fair share and understands he's not going to always win. But does he go into a match with the mind set he's better than the kid across from him? Sure. I teach him that as I should. But will that always be the case no it will not. All I'm trying to say is this we travel and try to give him Every advantage we can. While doing this I feel the set weights and weight classes are better suited for better competition. Now am I right some think so some think not. But that's why we all have a opinion. But I dont understand why you were so snide in your remarks about my son and where or how heavy he wrestles. He is a 9 year old boy who loves wrestling and works his tail off at it. He's doing it 6 sometimes 7 days a week putting in his time and here you are trying to down play his efforts. Hopefully in the future(say 6 or 7 years from now) we can pick this conversation back up after he is atop a podium and all his hard work and sacrifice has payed off. Thanks again.

"If I was going to cut him"....again you make my point. Cutting weight shouldn't be considered by a 9 year old.

I think it is awesome that you travel all over for competition. My point about the Cincinnati tournaments was only to point out that the competition there is about as good and organized as anywhere around, including all the other places you listed AND they use 10%. If NE Ohio changed to 10% tomorrow, would the level of competition change? Absolutely not. That's the point I tried to make to you. The format of the tournament has very little if any impact on the level of competition. You claimed those other tournaments are a "bigger deal" because they use set weight classes and I'm trying to explain to you that those other tournaments are a "bigger deal" because of the level of competition. Just like winning the Super 32 in high school which is a pre-season tournament and is formatted much different than other high school tournaments is a bigger deal than winning a Kentucky state title.

Snide remark? I didn't say anything snide about your son. How about your remark about the money?

[Cougar05 6]

What some are proposing we do is try and fast-forward 10 years and have 32 or 16 man brackets for state tournaments with weigh ins the day off. These parents and coaches are probably the same ones who keeps stats on their 3rd grade wrestler. I completely disagree with this notion. As far as weigh-ins and weight classes go, making any kids not in high school cut weight is a joke in my opinion. These are key developemental years for the kids not years for them to develope unhealthy means and measures to cut weight and try and get an "edge". However it is invevitable and over baring parents will always find ways to cheat the system or have their children cut weight.

 

My opinion would be to develope set weight classes based off the past 3 years results. That way weight classes would be set long before we get to state and it will allow kids to fit in a more natural weight class, and as far as weigh ins go make them weigh in on Monday night before state. As I mature as an adult and have a family of my own I will get my children into this great sport. As it stands now I would have no hesitation getting them involved with our youth organization. I know in the short future I will probably be coaching a youth team somewhere in this state and with discussions like we are having we are heading in the right direction. Maybe some day in the future I will be in a position like MLee

 

I got one more thing to add.

 

Bluesdad, I know WV has very strong high school wrestling but their youth and middle school teams are not out of this world good or even that much better than KY teams. I know that your boy spends a lot of time over there, so maybe my observation is a little off but I will go on ahead with it. Over my time as a coach, I have competed against them (WV kids) in  numerous tournaments and had very strong success. Several years ago Derek Wiley went to a national tournament out there in WV and finished second only losing to a kid from PA. In the champion quarters and semi's he had elementary state champs and Derek teched one and majored another. Darian Wolnitzek went undefeated out there that same year. Kids like Andy Wilson, Jacob Warwick, Trevor Thompson, Demarcus and Jermain Moore,and all the Grandstaff boys have dominated all the WV kids they competed against at TOC, Autism, and open tournaments. Ohio on the other hand is a different story all together.

 

Sorry if I'm a little off based with my comments, I am trying to get caught up with everything going on with the High school forum. Oh and I'm watching the UC/UL game on ESPN.

[Bluesdad 73]

Money is money my son is blood. Not sure if you have children but I'm sure you wouldn't want someone down playing there accomplishments. That's sort of what ya did in Antoine and about way by saying just SE Ohio and some WV tourney. Well thats how it was taken. If it wasn't meant that way I apologize i took it that way. He is my child and I will defend him if i feel he is threatened.I also want to say the money comment was a lil over board and I apologize for that also.

But again I said if I was going to I didn't say I have. But I have spoken to one of the top pediatricians in the nation from the Cleveland clinic regarding Blue on many different subjects. Those I will keep private. But for you to think I would do anything that may hurt my son is ludicrous. You don't know me and if you did you would know exactly what cautions are taken with Blue and his health. There's more there than meets the eye so I have to be careful. But you need not worry he is taken well care off on this end and nothing will jeopardize that.

[Bluesdad 73]

What some are proposing we do is try and fast-forward 10 years and have 32 or 16 man brackets for state tournaments with weigh ins the day off. These parents and coaches are probably the same ones who keeps stats on their 3rd grade wrestler. I completely disagree with this notion. As far as weigh-ins and weight classes go, making any kids not in high school cut weight is a joke in my opinion. These are key developemental years for the kids not years for them to develope unhealthy means and measures to cut weight and try and get an "edge". However it is invevitable and over baring parents will always find ways to cheat the system or have their children cut weight.

 

My opinion would be to develope set weight classes based off the past 3 years results. That way weight classes would be set long before we get to state and it will allow kids to fit in a more natural weight class, and as far as weigh ins go make them weigh in on Monday night before state. As I mature as an adult and have a family of my own I will get my children into this great sport. As it stands now I would have no hesitation getting them involved with our youth organization. I know in the short future I will probably be coaching a youth team somewhere in this state and with discussions like we are having we are heading in the right direction. Maybe some day in the future I will be in a position like MLee

 

I got one more thing to add.

 

Bluesdad, I know WV has very strong high school wrestling but their youth and middle school teams are not out of this world good or even that much better than KY teams. I know that your boy spends a lot of time over there, so maybe my observation is a little off but I will go on ahead with it. Over my time as a coach, I have competed against them (WV kids) in  numerous tournaments and had very strong success. Several years ago Derek Wiley went to a national tournament out there in WV and finished second only losing to a kid from PA. In the champion quarters and semi's he had elementary state champs and Derek teched one and majored another. Darian Wolnitzek went undefeated out there that same year. Kids like Andy Wilson, Jacob Warwick, Trevor Thompson, Demarcus and Jermain Moore,and all the Grandstaff boys have dominated all the WV kids they competed against at TOC, Autism, and open tournaments. Ohio on the other hand is a different story all together.

 

Sorry if I'm a little off based with my comments, I am trying to get caught up with everything going on with the High school forum. Oh and I'm watching the UC/UL game on ESPN.

Why are you just singling out WV wrestling. Blue spends 70% of his time in northern OH probably 20% in WV 5% in PA and MI and 5% in KY. But I say this he has wrestled a lot of the top kids in Ohio- Heard, Powell, Lugman, Ray, Gessler, White, Kohler, Wiseman and Kellar. He's wrestled most of the top 10U kids in OH and has beat them all. But now Kellar and Wiseman has beat him also but it was last year when he was 8 and wrestled up in age. The only one he hasn't wrestled that I think could and probably would beat him unless he wrestled flawless beat is Suber they just haven't meet up yet. But remember all these kids I'm mentioning are 10 all of them and Blue is 9. This year in youth he's lost one match to a WV kid. Derek Raike beat him 11-10 it was a outstanding match back and forth. So WV youth wrestling isn't as bad as you think right now. Let me say this as you all know we have wrestled kids from all over in more than 5 states. The best kid in the 10 group at 70lbs is from WV his name is Ian Irazarry. The kid is great wished Blue would've meet up with him but there are always in different brackets because of weight. But I think he beats Blue if they wrestle like 6-3 or something similar to that. One more name from WV to throw at ya Josh Humpries. He is a 12 year old 85lb monster. You will here his name in the big time in a few years. While I agree OH is a lot better over all but WV isn't as bad as you think.

[sbfraz 8]

I would love to know the coaches who told you they allow their YOUTH kids to cut weight so I could personally tell them how stupid they are to their face. I don't even care if they are bigger and tougher than me, that would be worth taking a butt kicking for in my opinion.

They are mostly coaches that are having their own sons do it and parents on the same teams that are following suit. And I do understand the typical reasons for weight cutting when you have weight classes but we do not. It doesn't take people long to figure out how to gain any perceived competitive edge possible. Cutting for weigh ins that are several days before a tourney and then putting pounds back on is one way to do that.

I have seen several weight challenges this season, almost everyone the kid was over by a few pounds but there were no repercussions because he weighed in 5 days earlier, after a tough practice, ect... Like I said, it doesn't take people long to find a way around the rules. Maybe they aren't lying about their weights at weigh ins; they are just cutting for them. It is happening.

[sbfraz 8]

I know you can't possibly eliminate all cheating but you can put some checks in place. We got some flack before our tourney for checking weights and charging a rebracket fee. We told teams about it ahead of time and gave a one pound allowance. We didn't have to rebracket any kids. Ironically, some of those same kids whose weights we checked on 2/2 wrestled 3-5 pounds lighter on 2/9 and 2/10 at their regionals (based on the weights that were submitted for the state tourney).

I think having official weigh ins a day or two prior to state is a good idea. I would also like to see other tourneys implement weight checks the day of their event. We ask kids to get there at least an hour early. Set up a couple scales, have a couple workers with spreadsheets with submitted weights, make the changes necessary - they will be minimal once people realize that they can't cheat the system.

[Nkawtg 137]

Sounds

[JDamron 4]

JD IMO the problem is we don't have true state champions for the youth like other states and the weight is being over blown in some cases. Some of the kids in Kentucky that win youth state couldn't go to open youth tourneys in OH or WV and even place in them. Are youth tournament needs to be addressed so our youth kids will get to be better wrestlers.

Gene, I love ya, you know that, but we disagree. I care very little about having a TRUE state YOUTH champion. If my son, Chase, never wins a youth tournament and wins the high school state title, I am totally cool with that. That we have kids who win state titles in Ky and can't place in the WV tournaments (and that happens a lot) does not matter to me at all. They are kids and who really cares. Because a kid is really good at youth does that automatically mean he is going to be a great high school wrestler? I don't have the numbers but I doubt it. I believe we raise the competition level higher by getting more kids out wrestling. We have a lot of good athletes in Kentucky, and particularly eastern Kentucky, that we cannot get to the wrestling mat because they are hung up on basketball. We get more kids out, we raise our competition level. I believe one way to get more kids out is to have a lot of kids placing in what is perceived by these kids and these communities as big tournaments. These kids get their picture in the local papers and all of a sudden a couple of his buddies, who may be better athletes, decide they want their picture in the paper with a medal around their neck. Makes all the sense in the world to me. I just don't believe bigger brackets equals better competition.

[Bluesdad 73]

I understand having a tournament were everyone can wrestle regardless. Let's call it the Novice state tourney. But then let's also have one that these kids have to qualify for. Saying this it looks like the Ky TOC is doing just that. I just wished our state tournament excited our youth kids to go wrestle in. I believe the state tournament should be the tourney these kids strive to win and bust their tail to be able to call their selfs state champions. Right now it's just like another tournament and not a huge deal to most of the. But I do love the venue it's in and Blue really loves doing the face offs. So regardless of the setup of state Blue will be there the next 3 years until his eligibility runs out.

P.S.

JD u da man and I luv ya 2 man

[Chris Duke 284]

It sounds like the main concern is weigh-ins.  Is it possible to do remote weigh-ins for regionals and have a weigh-out at regionals just like we did at state and use those numbers for the state tournament.  I know this only takes care of the first 4 placers the teams would have to make sure the other kids hit the scale before they left.  If we keep everyone in their singlet and wrestling shoes everyone will be on the same level.

[85mc 0]

I like the idea of 2 tournaments one novice one elite it would make for  better match ups.

And i know everyone want`s the sport to grow. But i would just hate to see what is the hardest sport at any age get turned into a watered down version of what it should be. Like so many other youth sports have where they give out trophies or medals for just showing up!

[Nkawtg 137]

In my opinion we are not near the point that we need to separate elite from novice. So what if 1 of 5-8 kids thinks he's a state champ? That's what grows the sport. The competition increases soon enough in this sport as the kids near middle school.

We need to enforce weighins and birth certificate checks.

[JC1 4]

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[J.W. 21]

No Steder, I think you are wrong.  I would venture to say that weight classes and weigh-ins would actually hurt some kids chances of being called a state champion - so not to stroke my ego.  But on numerous occassions when a 65 pound kid is in a bracket with a 54 pound kid because there was a lie on a weigh in sheet - it is now dangerous for the 54 pounder, regardless of who the parent is.

 

All can say it does not happen, but it does, it has, and it will continue.

 

Have an opinion without attacking others.  There are facts that point both ways, but if you are weighing in at a neutral site, all kids get an equal chance.  that is why wrestling was created with weigh-ins and weight classes.

 

I can say that the only reason anyone wants to not have weight classes is so they have a better chance for their kid to win a state championship.  Probably not a 100% true statement - but some facts to that.

 

So again - like many others on this site- voice your opinion, not making false facts about others and their intentions.

[kynovice 1]

This is a simple fix with a little work from the people putting on the meets.  All you have to do is use Track and have your weigh-ins as close to the meet as possible and faxed or emailed to meet location.  Then you can build your brackets and verify all wrestlers weights and age at check in before meet. Yes this will take  some time but with alittle planning it could flow easy and rather quickly.  You could set it up with a couple different scales and do by name by age or how you think works best.  Track makes it very easy to change brackets if something has changed or if someone lied.  If you find a pattern with some team or school they can be disallowed to compete.  Parents will put a stop to the coach who is doing this pretty quick after showing up to a meet and their kid not being able to wrestle.  Also if you have your weigh-ins 2 weeks in advance of the meet things are going to change because these are kids and are going to grow but there should not be a big difference.  This is just my opinion and sorry for being so long.

[85mc 0]

well put kynovice but from what i`ve read we`ll never be able to convice the die hard 10% guy`s

[sbfraz 8]

Can track accommodate the 10% rule for bracketing?

[kynovice 1]

I am not 100% sure about the 10% rule, but from what i understand you can set it up anyway you want. I don't know if they have predetermined values or if you enter your own. I have not personally setup a meet for brackets but the meets we have been to that use track make it so much easier for everyone involved. You can use an app on your phone to follow your whole team to know when and where everyone is supposed to be and follow the brackets and team scores. There is more info at trackwrestling.com that can answer more of your questions.

[sbfraz 8]

I would assume you can accommodate whatever type of brackets you want through track. I agree with 85. We should consider using track for youth state.

[Chris Duke 284]

I would like to see Track used during the year.  Its neat to see how it keeps stats on all the kids.  

[raidercoach 51]

No Steder, I think you are wrong. I would venture to say that weight classes and weigh-ins would actually hurt some kids chances of being called a state champion - so not to stroke my ego. But on numerous occassions when a 65 pound kid is in a bracket with a 54 pound kid because there was a lie on a weigh in sheet - it is now dangerous for the 54 pounder, regardless of who the parent is.

All can say it does not happen, but it does, it has, and it will continue.

Have an opinion without attacking others. There are facts that point both ways, but if you are weighing in at a neutral site, all kids get an equal chance. that is why wrestling was created with weigh-ins and weight classes.

I can say that the only reason anyone wants to not have weight classes is so they have a better chance for their kid to win a state championship. Probably not a 100% true statement - but some facts to that.

So again - like many others on this site- voice your opinion, not making false facts about others and their intentions.

There are two topics being discussed here: weigh ins and weight classes. I don't think anyone has said they don't want weigh ins. It is obvious that we need to do a better job at standardizing the weigh ins across the state and doing them closer to the events.

I completely disagree with your comment about people not wanting weight classes so their kid has a better chance at winning state. In fact, there have been many people I've talked to and have seen on these boards who oppose weight classes at youth and you are the only person I've ever heard make that claim. I don't have any kids that wrestle (two daughters) and I am 100% against having weight classes at the youth level. You claim you have some "facts to that", I am very curious what those facts are. I'm not trying to start a battle with you, but you are preaching to people about voicing their opinion and not making false facts. I agree, so please share with us your facts about this issue.

[J.W. 21]

There are two topics being discussed here: weigh ins and weight classes. I don't think anyone has said they don't want weigh ins. It is obvious that we need to do a better job at standardizing the weigh ins across the state and doing them closer to the events.

I completely disagree with your comment about people not wanting weight classes so their kid has a better chance at winning state. In fact, there have been many people I've talked to and have seen on these boards who oppose weight classes at youth and you are the only person I've ever heard make that claim. I don't have any kids that wrestle (two daughters) and I am 100% against having weight classes at the youth level. You claim you have some "facts to that", I am very curious what those facts are. I'm not trying to start a battle with you, but you are preaching to people about voicing their opinion and not making false facts. I agree, so please share with us your facts about this issue.

 Facts to what, that people cut weight in the 10% system.  I did weigh-ins for the south part of the region and watched the kids come in from other teams in sweatsuits with sweat on their kids.  I talked to parents that brought their kids in, if you ask around, they will tell you.  Yes you don't know where you will end up in a 10% weight class, but if you normally weigh 57, but weigh in at 52 or 53 - the most you can be in is a 58.8 weight class.  You are now within a pound of being biggest.  Weigh in at natural weight of 57 and yo can now be in a 62.7 weight class and you are the smallest.  Does it happen with all...no.  Does it happen... Yes.  I know the parents that do it or have done it for tournaments.  Not saying it is right, but you have made the statement that the 10% rule has systematically removed weight cutting.  I will not use names on here because that is parent business.   You have the results / facts in your hand from the state tournament for medal weigh-ins, where some kids were 6 pounds heavier at medals than the day they weighed in.  I guarantee you some of those kids on that list I weighed in and wrote what the scale said that day.

 

I don't want to argue with you about it either.  I want each of us to agree we disagree.  I think we can, as a state, provide both types of tournaments and help build wrestling together.  Your system for introducing new kids and growing numbers - I said before that there is probably alot of truths to what you say.  I have an idea that I would like to go forward with that will bring in out of state competition, give our advanced wrestlers some higher goals, give those that want weight classes / weigh in tournaments an option.

 

I think it can work if there is not a need to try to destroy the other. 

[J.W. 21]

And yes I would use track for everything and it will do madison weight systems (AKA the 10% rule).  I have alot of experience with track.  It would also eliminate hours of one guy punching names in a bracket, each team can have an admin account where they input their own kids, weigh ins could be a breeze.  Only down fall is the internet access that is required.  I use my phone as a hotspot and have not blown past usage yet, but usually dont run multiples in a month.  I am doing it this month though.

[raidercoach 51]

Facts to what, that people cut weight in the 10% system. I did weigh-ins for the south part of the region and watched the kids come in from other teams in sweatsuits with sweat on their kids. I talked to parents that brought their kids in, if you ask around, they will tell you. Yes you don't know where you will end up in a 10% weight class, but if you normally weigh 57, but weigh in at 52 or 53 - the most you can be in is a 58.8 weight class. You are now within a pound of being biggest. Weigh in at natural weight of 57 and yo can now be in a 62.7 weight class and you are the smallest. Does it happen with all...no. Does it happen... Yes. I know the parents that do it or have done it for tournaments. Not saying it is right, but you have made the statement that the 10% rule has systematically removed weight cutting. I will not use names on here because that is parent business. You have the results / facts in your hand from the state tournament for medal weigh-ins, where some kids were 6 pounds heavier at medals than the day they weighed in. I guarantee you some of those kids on that list I weighed in and wrote what the scale said that day.

I don't want to argue with you about it either. I want each of us to agree we disagree. I think we can, as a state, provide both types of tournaments and help build wrestling together. Your system for introducing new kids and growing numbers - I said before that there is probably alot of truths to what you say. I have an idea that I would like to go forward with that will bring in out of state competition, give our advanced wrestlers some higher goals, give those that want weight classes / weigh in tournaments an option.

I think it can work if there is not a need to try to destroy the other.

You claimed there are some facts to that people want 10% to help their kids win a youth state tournament. I don't see the connection.

Weight cutting at 10% is significantly less than with weight classes. I have accepted based on some of the posts on here that it may still happen with 10% in some areas, but we don't see it at all and we are confident 10% helped get rid if it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[J.W. 21]

The comment you are wanting facts to was an example of a blind assumption to Steder saying that I could blindly make assumptions as he has said that others only want weight classes for their own parent ego.  Get it now!  Both comments don't carry water because they are more opinion based comments.

 

As far as cutting for 10%, one of your coaches was sharing the results of the medal weigh-ins with a parent from another team at a Ryle practice or open mat - not sure of the details.  Were there kids heavier on tournament day than the weight submitted 10 days prior?