Kentucky Wrestling

[kdsmith27 14]

Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Members of the high school coaching staff (paid or

unpaid) shall not be prohibited from sport specific

observation and evaluation (but not coaching) of any

player who has played for a grade nine (9) through

grade twelve (12) team (freshman, junior varsity,

varsity)

It does not say we cannot be there, we just cannot "coach" When I'm with my team in the summer, I am just observing and evaluating. Julian Tacket understands our situation more then people give him credit for. Has anyone (Coach) in wrestling ever been identified with this violation? Most Coaches in the wrestling community understand what needs to be done to continue with our training. We are doing no less then any other sport to stay competitive.

[pioneer_pride 1]

you guys all have good points.  TeamJesus, that's a great point i'd love to see the coaches association taking up that fight.  That would be great.  I think the way Ohio and other states get by with this is in the off season they wrestle greco and freestyle.  In Ohio this is considered a different sport, in Kentucky (according to the KHSAA) this is not.  This is VERY poor judgement if you ask me.

Anyhow, Eville Dad (that's still the best name on here if you ask me :-)).  I think the rule that prohibits h.s. coaches from coaching in the off season is basically that all sports have a designated window for their season.  Such as practices can not start before 10/15 (or whatever it is)....and they must conclude after the h.s. state tourney.  now i think other sports get away with this by having AAU teams in the off season and coaches who are not affiliated with the school coach.  so if your son wants to go compete outside of the normal season, as long as his h.s. coach or someone affiliated with the program is not coaching him...AND he's not wearing a school uniform, he's fine.  but if he was to wear a school uniform...and go wrestle at the Ohio T of C for example, it may muck up his eligibility.  I would hope no one would ever snitch...but i'm sure there's people out there.  By the rules, your h.s. coach can't coach you in the off season.

If there's a h.s. coach on here that may know otherwise, please correct me if i'm wrong...but that's how it was explained to me.

[pioneer_pride 1]

Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Members of the high school coaching staff (paid or

unpaid) shall not be prohibited from sport specific

observation and evaluation (but not coaching) of any

player who has played for a grade nine (9) through

grade twelve (12) team (freshman, junior varsity,

varsity)

It does not say we cannot be there, we just cannot "coach" When I'm with my team in the summer, I am just observing and evaluating. Julian Tacket understands our situation more then people give him credit for. Has anyone (Coach) in wrestling ever been identified with this violation? Most Coaches in the wrestling community understand what needs to be done to continue with our training. We are doing no less then any other sport to stay competitive.

I was going to say....who's going to snitch?  ;-)  idk...there might be someone out there...but i know if i seen a h.s. coach coaching in the off season, i would say good for him.  I think technically you could get in trouble....just like you could get busted for going 56 in a 55mph zone.

[kdsmith27 14]

Very True, But people have to remember that it is for the kids. It may help the coaches team but it is for the kids.

[overtimeking 0]

i saw where you said about kds missing practice at our school its not ollerated much now that justin bozeman can run things his way with out principales and stuff gettin involved we can only miss practice if its an emergency and we have to make up the running and lifting cause there no need to miss full practices

[eville dad 17]

The reason I am so interested in getting high school coaches available to coach and help during the off season is because I think their involvement is critical to getting some of the kids to wrestle beyond the high school season. The quality of wrestling in the state is improving but off season wrestling is the next logical step to improving the state overall. The middle school programs are finally getting a good number of kids to the high school ranks with some decent experience, now it is time for sport to develop beyond the school seasons.

If High School Coaches were allowed to get involved with their USAW or AAU programs I think they would have a lot more kids wanting to wrestle during the off season. Getting involved doesn't mean they have to run every aspect of a club. They could work with someone designated as the club coach and help coach and administer the duties of running a club, helping to make sure the environment is safe and the instruction is good and correct. Their involvement would carry a lot of weight with the kids and whether or not they want to participate.

But the rules need to be clear as to what coaches are allowed to do, they shouldn't have to worry about anyone snitching on them because the rules aren't clear or because they have been able to get away with something in the past, unwritten agreements and people looking the other way will only lead to problems or lack of involvement in the long run.

Most states develop clubs and allow all kids regardless of school affiliations to belong to the club. This could offer great opportunities to kids throughout the state. Club wrestling in the off season is a lot less pressure for the kids and the coaches. Club programs enable kids to try new styles and learn new moves without being overly concerned about their won-loss record and weight issues. USAW and AAU both offer Folk, Free, Greco, and some Sombo and Beach competitions and all styles can help a high school wrestler for the most important part of their career which is during the high school season.

With the emergence of UFC and other extreme styles of wrestling, fighting etc... its probably a good idea to try to increase the number of organized and supervised opportunities for kids to avoid unsupervised and less than safe conditions that occur when kids start working out on their own and trying new styles or things they have seen on TV.

[kdsmith27 14]

Well said Eville.

[Guest DAWG6]

Is this the rule regarding coaches in the off season that restricts HS Coaches from Coaching during the summer?

Bylaw 25. Limitation of Seasons

(6) Involvement of Members of the Coaching Staff Out

of Season

Members of the high school coaching staff (paid or

unpaid) shall not be prohibited from sport specific

observation and evaluation (but not coaching) of any

player who has played for a grade nine (9) through

grade twelve (12) team (freshman, junior varsity,

varsity) from the first day of school through the last

day of school provided such play is under the direct

control of the same local board of education as the

coach is employed and provided such play is not in

conflict with other KHSAA bylaws.

I would like to completely understand the rule on High School Coaches coaching during the off season, what is allowed and what is not allowed.

DEAD PERIOD:

I think I understand the dead period. That seems clear that there is no contact for the two week period.

But what about outside of the dead period?

Are HS Coaches allowed to coach at all out side of the school year? Yes, as long as it's not there kids

If their own children are playing on the team does that allow them to coach? Yes, I had that issue for my son, but I legally couldn't coach any of the 9-12th graders from our team, other teams was fine.

I am sure that HS Coaches are coaching travel teams in other sports?

Who is the authority on this issue for Kentucky High School Athletics?

MANDATORY PROGRAMS?

I know of no hs programs that make any activity outside of the schools season truly MANDATORY. It may be suggested by a coach that a child work hard and play here or there during the off season but never have I heard it was contingent on the child being able to participate the next season.

Don't hold your breath, I know for a fact of several football coaches that threaten our football/wrestlers about playing time, I went to the Principal and he said he would look into it. He was a temporary principal and stated he probably couldn't do much.  The football coach is the AD, we will see what happens this season with our younger kids in the transition. 

My daughter cheered at a HS considered very elite competitively and even the dreaded summer cheerleading practices while considered mandatory were not attended by all participants.  The wrestling in the summer was find but you couldn't substitute wrestling instead of football weighting spring practice, if you didn't have 100% into all aspects of football your playing time would be scaled "QUOTE" my nephew and several other freshman were told that.

Yes the girls were strongly encouraged to attend but for various reasons some could not. If they could still keep their skills up they were not penalized. Now some girls did drop out for failure to keep up skills and be the best for the competitive team. But this sport of cheerleading clearly explained before tryouts what was expected beforehand.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Dawg;

Just those type of things is what the rule is trying to avoid, by not allowing mandatory practices in the off-season. 

Like it or not this happens more often than people want to admit.

Who was/would be hurt most by allowing coaches to have mandatory practices in the off-season? 

It hurts the minor sports such as wrestling.  The rule has probably helped wrestling more than we know. 

As I've said in another post.  Many football coaches go overboard.  2-A-days, 3-A-days.  This seems ridiculus to me.  If no-one is doing it then its fair.  Imagine if these same coaches were able to make mandatory practices all year.  Many would do just that, and IMO wrestling would loose many participant.

Once again however I think that h.s. coaches should be allowed to coach in the off-season, just not make it mandatory.  This would have to be monitored and dealt with, if a violation occurs. 

But as we already know the KHSAA has trouble with monitoring, otherwise we would not have had the private/public school issue in football.

[eville dad 17]

Dawg,

Sounds like a problem that needs correcting. Those are usually the coaches that want to win at all cost and threaten about holding kids back but when it comes down to putting kids on the field, they play the best regardless of their committment. All their ranting and raving about conditioning for football goes out the window when it actually comes time to try to win a football game.

I have heard of baseball programs around Louisville that demand exclusivity to their sport. But I doubt that if one of their stars wanted to play another sport that they would keep them off the team. Its a shame that coaches use their authority in such a restricting way. If they were coaching an elite travel team I could understand it but these are public high schools where that shouldnt happen.

[pioneer_pride 1]

you guys all have good points, and i can see that wrestling would probably end up on the short end of the stick on this to football and stuff.  good coaches (football, bball or whatever) shouldn't keep a kid or hold it against a kid if they play other sports.  my h.s. football coach would have loved it if we all did nothing but football but he accepted it.  he also knew he'd be in hot water if he had ever benched a kid specifically because he played another sport. 

however, i think there's nothing wrong with a coach making a camp/tournament/conditioning program mandatory to kids not in other sports, or kids without a good excuse.  sorry, that's just the way i see it.  i also think the more successful programs in the nation probably have mandatory off season stuff of some sort.  Graham, St. Eds, Blair Academy, etc....i would guess they have mandatory camps and tournaments for all varsity wrestlers.  perhaps they are "unwritten" mandatory stuff.  what do they do if you skip it?  i'm not sure...but as long as it's known in advance what the consequences are....no matter how severe, i think it's fine.  and before everyone blasts me and says "those programs are different...they're on another level....we don't have programs like that here".  1) we have football & probably basketball programs like that in this state....believe me.  2) aren't we trying to be like those programs?  don't we want to have a national powerhouse program out of this state?  i do.  i'd love to see 5-10 years from now that a team from Kentucky is in the top 5.  (unless it's woodford county ;-))  no seriously, even them.  i'd love to see it.  you can't get to that level with kids that aren't committed...with coaches and parents that make it ok and acceptable to skip camps/tournaments or whatever so they can sit at home and play super nintendo.

i know all this is easier said then done, i have a hard enough time getting my own kid to stay committed let alone kids in our program.  but in a perfect world, i'd have no problems with a coach making a camp or something mandatory.

[grappler-of-old 44]

What we 1st need to make mandatory is a

wrestling coaches annual meeting

I don't mean this rules interpretation meeting.

I mean a meeting by the coaches assosication.  Years ago we had a coaches symposiom.  They had a few people come and talk to the coaches.  I believe one year they had Doug Bluebaul (sp).

If we did this we could have a meeting where we discuss what we want accomplished or what we would like changed.

The meeting they have at the state tourney does not get much accomplished becuase the coaches are more concerned about the tourney.

[kdsmith27 14]

Grappler, you are so right. We really need to have this kind of coaches meeting to simulate information out. This could also be used for mini presentations (Speakers) of different wrestling subjects for coaching needs. There is so much we could accomplish if we could meet as a group. We really need to get KWCA and its members to pick up the pace. We need active leadership within the organization that will make it happen. Coaches need to be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem as far as not getting involved.

"Kentucky Coaches Wrestling Association Convention" now wouldn't that be nice?

[Guest DAWG6]

Dawg,

Sounds like a problem that needs correcting. Those are usually the coaches that want to win at all cost and threaten about holding kids back but when it comes down to putting kids on the field, they play the best regardless of their committment. All their ranting and raving about conditioning for football goes out the window when it actually comes time to try to win a football game.

I did and when it was discussed it had negitive impact on the wrestling coach and resource available, unanounced changes, and our coach only has a couple years in the school so he doesn't want to get fired.  We have a new principal so hopefully it will get better, or I'll be addressing it with the school board.

I have heard of baseball programs around Louisville that demand exclusivity to their sport. But I doubt that if one of their stars wanted to play another sport that they would keep them off the team. Its a shame that coaches use their authority in such a restricting way. If they were coaching an elite travel team I could understand it but these are public high schools where that shouldnt happen.

Again, correect the blue chip players also play basketball or baseball.  But it goes back to irgorance of our sport and failure to want to understand how we can help each other.

[Guest DAWG6]

you guys all have good points, and i can see that wrestling would probably end up on the short end of the stick on this to football and stuff.  good coaches (football, bball or whatever) shouldn't keep a kid or hold it against a kid if they play other sports.  my h.s. football coach would have loved it if we all did nothing but football but he accepted it.  he also knew he'd be in hot water if he had ever benched a kid specifically because he played another sport. 

however, i think there's nothing wrong with a coach making a camp/tournament/conditioning program mandatory to kids not in other sports, or kids without a good excuse.  sorry, that's just the way i see it. 

I don't think anyone on this topic would disagree.

i also think the more successful programs in the nation probably have mandatory off season stuff of some sort.  Graham, St. Eds, Blair Academy, etc....i would guess they have mandatory camps and tournaments for all varsity wrestlers.  perhaps they are "unwritten" mandatory stuff. 

No those kids just want to be the best and they have plenty to choose form :wink:

what do they do if you skip it?  i'm not sure...but as long as it's known in advance what the consequences are....no matter how severe, i think it's fine.  and before everyone blasts me and says "those programs are different...they're on another level....we don't have programs like that here".  1) we have football & probably basketball programs like that in this state....believe me.  2) aren't we trying to be like those programs?  don't we want to have a national powerhouse program out of this state?  i do.  i'd love to see 5-10 years from now that a team from Kentucky is in the top 5.  (unless it's woodford county ;-))  no seriously, even them.  i'd love to see it.  you can't get to that level with kids that aren't committed...with coaches and parents that make it ok and acceptable to skip camps/tournaments or whatever so they can sit at home and play super nintendo.

i know all this is easier said then done, i have a hard enough time getting my own kid to stay committed let alone kids in our program.  but in a perfect world, i'd have no problems with a coach making a camp or something mandatory.

 

Concur, but DON't give them only one choice- my sport or NO sport.

[overweight 0]

you guys all have good points, and i can see that wrestling would probably end up on the short end of the stick on this to football and stuff.  good coaches (football, bball or whatever) shouldn't keep a kid or hold it against a kid if they play other sports.  my h.s. football coach would have loved it if we all did nothing but football but he accepted it.  he also knew he'd be in hot water if he had ever benched a kid specifically because he played another sport. 

however, i think there's nothing wrong with a coach making a camp/tournament/conditioning program mandatory to kids not in other sports, or kids without a good excuse.  sorry, that's just the way i see it.  i also think the more successful programs in the nation probably have mandatory off season stuff of some sort.  Graham, St. Eds, Blair Academy, etc....i would guess they have mandatory camps and tournaments for all varsity wrestlers.  perhaps they are "unwritten" mandatory stuff.  what do they do if you skip it?  i'm not sure...but as long as it's known in advance what the consequences are....no matter how severe, i think it's fine.  and before everyone blasts me and says "those programs are different...they're on another level....we don't have programs like that here".  1) we have football & probably basketball programs like that in this state....believe me.  2) aren't we trying to be like those programs?  don't we want to have a national powerhouse program out of this state?  i do.  i'd love to see 5-10 years from now that a team from Kentucky is in the top 5.  (unless it's woodford county ;-))  no seriously, even them.  i'd love to see it.  you can't get to that level with kids that aren't committed...with coaches and parents that make it ok and acceptable to skip camps/tournaments or whatever so they can sit at home and play super nintendo.

i know all this is easier said then done, i have a hard enough time getting my own kid to stay committed let alone kids in our program.  but in a perfect world, i'd have no problems with a coach making a camp or something mandatory.

[overweight 0]

you guys all have good points, and i can see that wrestling would probably end up on the short end of the stick on this to football and stuff.  good coaches (football, bball or whatever) shouldn't keep a kid or hold it against a kid if they play other sports.  my h.s. football coach would have loved it if we all did nothing but football but he accepted it.  he also knew he'd be in hot water if he had ever benched a kid specifically because he played another sport. 

however, i think there's nothing wrong with a coach making a camp/tournament/conditioning program mandatory to kids not in other sports, or kids without a good excuse.  sorry, that's just the way i see it.  i also think the more successful programs in the nation probably have mandatory off season stuff of some sort.  Graham, St. Eds, Blair Academy, etc....i would guess they have mandatory camps and tournaments for all varsity wrestlers.  perhaps they are "unwritten" mandatory stuff.  what do they do if you skip it?  i'm not sure...but as long as it's known in advance what the consequences are....no matter how severe, i think it's fine.  and before everyone blasts me and says "those programs are different...they're on another level....we don't have programs like that here".  1) we have football & probably basketball programs like that in this state....believe me.  2) aren't we trying to be like those programs?  don't we want to have a national powerhouse program out of this state?  i do.  i'd love to see 5-10 years from now that a team from Kentucky is in the top 5.  (unless it's woodford county ;-))  no seriously, even them.  i'd love to see it.  you can't get to that level with kids that aren't committed...with coaches and parents that make it ok and acceptable to skip camps/tournaments or whatever so they can sit at home and play super Nintendo.

i know all this is easier said then done, i have a hard enough time getting my own kid to stay committed let alone kids in our program.  but in a perfect world, i'd have no problems with a coach making a camp or something mandatory

You are right on, Super Nintendo,,,,,,,,,,,,?  try 360, Super Nintendo,,,,,,,,,, See what we junked in quarters at the bowling alley and mall, it is better than that!