Realignment and State Duals Update

[The Bear 0]

Oh I would also like to add.  A big tournament does not necessarily mean a good/tough tournament. 

The WCI is just this.  Many teams (mostly small) but not many quality teams. Not my definition of a tough tournament.

The WCI must've changed since the last time i went (9th grade year) because they had some pretty tough teams there. Woodfo, NH, Fern Creek, Scott, Science Hill, PLD, Seneca, All of the Oldham schools, Ceintenial TN, and this is when they had pretty tough teams with Daniel Thuemnan, the whole Wofo crew, tough Oldham Co. schools. You can tell which are the tougher tournaments though. From what I saw of the Woodford finals though I guess it isn't a tough tournament but I think just about everyone who placed 1st or 2nd placed high or placed in the state tournament.

[dinubus 2]

Kentucky wrestling will stay stuck in the mud, want to know why? People are too scared to take chances! There is a reason that just about every state surrounding us is better. Not everyone is going to get their way no matter what we do to the tournament but I'm tired of seeing people who DON'T DESERVE to be in the finals in the finals. Yes I said it don't deserve, the reason they shouldn't desrve it is because if that guy who was in the semis with the number one guy ( aka the finals match) was seeded right he would've ended up on the opposite side of the bracket and smashed the guy who didn't deserve to be in the finals. Ex. Courtney should have been in the finals his 8th grade year, not because he got a bad call but because he probably would've smashed Garrison Headley if he were on the opposite side of the bracket because it was obviously a see saw between Courtney and Sanders as number one and two the whole year.

This may be a good argument for a "True" 2nd wrestle-off between the current 2nd-3rd spot, but does not give creedance to seeding the state tournament.

[The Bear 0]

This may be a good argument for a "True" 2nd wrestle-off between the current 2nd-3rd spot, but does not give creedance to seeding the state tournament.

Well it's not true second wrestle off, it's a true first second place match. When you have two top level guys who are obviously above the rest of the pack don't you want to see them underneath the spot light where it counts where every fan is watching?

[dinubus 2]

And you think seeding will make that happen?  I have been to many, many, many tournaments and the probability that the 1st and 2nd seed make it to the finals and wrestle each other has been at best 60%. If we look at our current state structure, we are probably already reaching that same statistic.  Thus, I still do not see a need for seeding.  All it does is tell the regional placers that their placement doesn't make a difference, and it adds a whole bunch of trouble / expense throughout the season to keep the best and most accurate records from which to seed.  Or, it adds the trouble of about a 3 day seeding meeting for the coaches (not sure any AD in the state would be willing to pay for their teacher/coach to be out that long).

[The Bear 0]

And you think seeding will make that happen?  I have been to many, many, many tournaments and the probability that the 1st and 2nd seed make it to the finals and wrestle each other has been at best 60%. If we look at our current state structure, we are probably already reaching that same statistic.  Thus, I still do not see a need for seeding.  All it does is tell the regional placers that their placement doesn't make a difference, and it adds a whole bunch of trouble / expense throughout the season to keep the best and most accurate records from which to seed.  Or, it adds the trouble of about a 3 day seeding meeting for the coaches (not sure any AD in the state would be willing to pay for their teacher/coach to be out that long).

I don't think it would take three days to seed. I think every coach can agree they come up to state the night before the tournament, and if they don't they are in driving distance to the center. All it takes is a few hours the night before to seed it if you have a plan before you go in with a general idea of how the seeds are set up.

[The Bear 0]

I just find it crazy that the NCAA tournament and how big it is can be seeded but yet we can't seed our top 8 wrestlers.

[dinubus 2]

You do realize that the NCAA is seeded by an independent organization that gets paid very well, right?

Also, the top four seeds in a small 12 man tournament typically takes 2 hours to seed.  And that is only with the possible 12 - 16 teams.  The state tournament, with 70 teams and 32 man brackets seeding to 8 places will easily take 24 hours (3 full 8 hour days).

[pioneer_pride 1]

I have been told by a coach that the KHSAA has been asked about this in the past, and Julian Tackett's response is "the state tournament is where we determine the best wrestler, not the second best wrestler".  In light of this, I think does it really matter who's seeded where?  The best wrestler should be standing on top of the podium no matter where they are seeded at state.  The second best on down should wind up 2nd or 3rd I would guess.  But the best wrestler on that Saturday will be wearing the gold.  Seeding it would be a huge hassle for the coaches honestly. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Kentucky wrestling will stay stuck in the mud, want to know why?

Exactly how does this keep Ky stuck in the mud?

People are too scared to take chances!

The boarder schools are taking chances.  They go to these "BETTER" (your word not mine) states.  They attend these tournaments and get losses.  This in turn hurts their possible seed at the Regional tourney. If they were forced to stay in KY.  Which is the only way to keep accurate records with common opponents and such.  They would then not be as good as they are now.

Lets take a look at this.  In Nky Simon Kenton, Campbell Co. and Ryle all spend more than half their season in Ohio.  Conner use to in the 80's when they were at the top of their game.  In WKy Union Co. spend a lot of time out of state, Hop-town spent almost their entire season out of state in their hayday in the 80s-90s.  Sheldon Clark spent much of their time in WV during their run in the late 90s.  I'm sure there are others.  But with the exception of Woodford Co. who does spend most of their time in Ky, you can see a correlation between teams who spend much of their time out of state to the top teams in Ky each year.

There is a reason that just about every state surrounding us is better.

Yeah there are reasons.

1.  Wresting has been around longer in most of these states.  Ky started in 64.

2.  Those states spend time in national tourneys (which means out of state)

3.  Wresting holds more clout in there High School Athletic Association

4.  These states have a higher population than Ky therefore have more participants in wrestling. 

I'm not sure how long you have been around Bear but KY has made leaps and bounds in the last 10 to 15 years.  Our kids are now competitive in many of the national tourneys.  They may not place, but they also are not blown out. 20 years ago this was defiantly not the situation. 

[The Bear 0]

Ok, I think we should at least try it one year in the future though, if it's in the budget, time, etc. I'd just like to see some change in the tournament try new things you know? It's always a well run tournament, ( a little long for me I'd like to see the 16 man bracket back), and goes pretty fast considering how many mats there are. So if seeding is obviously not the case here, what do you think is going to change next year?

[grappler-of-old 44]

I will agree with you about the 16 man bracket.  I would love to see that back.

I believe the change we should see is the 5 match rule changed to a time on the mat rule. 

[dinubus 2]

I think there should be no such thing as a 5 match rule.  I wrestled far more than that in a day and it wasn't a problem.  Heck, wrestlers perform far more matches in one practice than that.

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

[ubtappin 1]

When is this big secret going to be revealed?

[CoachBrown 12]

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

[Guest cmccoy]

I was contacted by the KHSAA yesterday and told that the final decision will be made in the middle of June. It is not a big secret, just something that is needed in KY. They asked me not to say anything until it is passed just so we don't count our chickens until they are hatched. Besides this makes good conversation. It is getting people talking about Kentucky Wrestling at a time when nothing is really going on.

[The Bear 0]

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

There is a problem with this. Liability.

It's because of the past that regulations are in place now.

Btw, I don't love all the rules personally, but the intent of them is with the wrestlers best interest at heart.

The 45 min. rule didn't really come into play at most of the tournaments that I went to. It took a lot longer than 45 min. to go through a round. At state is the only place I can think of it comes into play but come on we wrestle to like 11 or 12 on the 2nd day how much longer do you want to wrestle? Also the third day it would probably only save you one to two hours at most, I'd rather take those one to two hours and have kids recooperate and feel fresh for their final match of the season. Just my take on the 45 min. thing it wouldn't really change much.

[dinubus 2]

When running a tournament using a program (to save time), the program requires the bout to be submitted before it starts timing the 45 min.  Then it will print the bout only after that 45 min. is up.  So, the tournaments have to take breaks or whatever so the printing can get caught up.  That is why there are always the breaks in tournaments that everyone groans about. 

[Kentucky10 0]

When running a tournament using a program (to save time), the program requires the bout to be submitted before it starts timing the 45 min.  Then it will print the bout only after that 45 min. is up.  So, the tournaments have to take breaks or whatever so the printing can get caught up.  That is why there are always the breaks in tournaments that everyone groans about. 

i don't know what your talking about groaning. never from me i love the breaks. thats my time to feast hahaha

[cougars_119 0]

I also think they should change the 45 min. rule into a 15 min. rule.  Wrestlers should be able to get their energy/wind back in 15 min.  If they cannot, maybe they need to think about:  a) losing less weight! training harder.

There is a problem with this. Liability.

It's because of the past that regulations are in place now.

Btw, I don't love all the rules personally, but the intent of them is with the wrestlers best interest at heart.

you expect a wrestler thats wrestling in a tournament and has already wrestled 3 or 4 matches that day to be ready to wrestle agian after only 15 mins? you would be worn out and wrestle sloppy in your finals match and make a stupid mistake that you wouldnt have made if you were fresh that could have cost you the match.

[ForeverFearless 0]

maybe after your first match they could give the wrestlers X amount of time and then after there next match they would give more time added on to time X from the first match, and then increase the time between matches with each remaning bout

[grappler-of-old 44]

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

[cougars_119 0]

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

that rule change would make alot of since and I think we should try and get that changed.

[The Bear 0]

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

5 Match rule idea sounds great.

[dinubus 2]

you expect a wrestler thats wrestling in a tournament and has already wrestled 3 or 4 matches that day to be ready to wrestle agian after only 15 mins? you would be worn out and wrestle sloppy in your finals match and make a stupid mistake that you wouldnt have made if you were fresh that could have cost you the match.

At that age, I wrested a freestyle match, walked off that mat and directly on to another match to wrestle another match.  I also wrestled 8-10 matches in a tournament most weekends (freestyle) and can remember in cadet state having only 15 min. before my finals match.  If the kids work hard enough in practice and eat right, they shouldn't be overly exhausted.  I know as a coach, my wrestlers wrestled many many hard matches in one 3 hour practice.

[dinubus 2]

OK. The 45 minute rule is of little concern.  Most tourneys have that much time in between matches naturally.  There is no need to change this rule.  I believe it gives kids just enough time to allow their bodies to recuperate.  Mostly re-hydrating their body, and allowing them time to digest that water. 

This is also not a state rule.  Since it is something that is being considered by our state and not the Wrestling Federation the only thing it can be is.

Allowing coaches to coach their wrestlers after the season is over.  It may only pertain to large tourneys such as nationals and such.  This can be a huge jump for Ky even with these restrictions.

changing the 45 minute rule or the 5-match rule has to come from the Federation. 

Personally I would like the 5-match rule modified.  Maybe allowing a kid to wrestle 15 periods in a day.  Therefore if he wrestled 5 tough matches he is done after 5 matches.  If he receives a forfeit he can still wrestle 5 more matches.  I would recommend this rule and state that a wrestler must have at least 3 periods of eligibility to be allowed to wrestle the next match.

I have already agreed on the 5 match rule.

However; your understanding of the body's water absorbtion process needs work.  The water starts being absorbed while still in your mouth.  Your body can be completely re-hydrated (unless totally dehydrated at a hospital level) within the 5-10 min. allowing for the 15 min. match rule to work very easily.