When does a move become a "punishing move"

[dinubus 2]

Dinubus:

I was referring to your second referance, saying officials become more like Cattan.

Double chicken wings cannot become punishing.  However Double legs can if you pull his arms out without allowing him to catch himself.  Even in the stone age when I wrestled I got called for that numerous times.

With your theory we should also allow slams becuse a slam is just an agressive way to take a person down.  One lift and trip may be legal while another may be called a slam.   

An aggressive scissors of the body can crack ribs just as easily as a slam can seperate a shoulder.

Actually, I love Freestyle (Olypic wrestling) and yes what would you call a suplex?

[dinubus 2]

Oops, spelling - Olympic (sorry all)

[Kentucky10 0]

Goo has probably watched more of those guys' live matches than you have young fella!  I would say that while Joe Carr Jr may have had a mean game face on, he was not what many people would have considered a "punishing" wrestler.  He was extremely technical.  Especially in his earlier years.  He probably could have been as punishing as he wanted to by his Jr/Sr year, simply because he was so much better than the rest of the state.  But he wasn't punishing, more technical than anything.  Don't flip out on me Kentucky10, that's not an insult at all.

no, its cool. but i dissagree, true he may have seen those guys live, but i have watched alot of tapes, many times. i think we differ in opinion of what a "punishing wrestler" is. I think of a punishing wrestler to be someone like matt zarth  who stuck me every time we met this year, someone who dominates like that. Like jojo carr, ian horn, and most hawkeyes.

[dinubus 2]

And, who is to say that someone who is a "punishing" wrestler isn't technical.  I knew plenty of moves.  I still know a lot, and I have forgotten way more.  Yet, when I walked out on that mat to see someone else with the audacity to stand in front of me, I grew angry because they should have known better.  After the match, I could be quite friendly to them and may even teach them a move or two, but I hated each and every opponent I had while I was on the mat with them.  That is what made me a punishing wrestler and I do not see anything wrong with it.  It is a sport after all, not a game.

[cougars_119 0]

This doesnt really have anything to do with a real wrestling match but when i wrestle my friends that arent wrestlers and i get them in scissors across the body i do it as hard as i can and give them a nice cross face.. lol

but back on topic i dont really see how you can call a punishing move at all because some wrestlers have higher pain tolerance then others.. if you get a kid that has a very low pain tolerance and you barly scissor them and they cry like you have squeezed the crap out of them then you get penalized for having a a completly legal move but just a whiney opponent.

[MatMama 0]

Danger, you're a dirty boy. :evil: (but funny)

[The Bear 0]

This doesnt really have anything to do with a real wrestling match but when i wrestle my friends that arent wrestlers and i get them in scissors across the body i do it as hard as i can and give them a nice cross face.. lol

but back on topic i dont really see how you can call a punishing move at all because some wrestlers have higher pain tolerance then others.. if you get a kid that has a very low pain tolerance and you barly scissor them and they cry like you have squeezed the crap out of them then you get penalized for having a a completly legal move but just a whiney opponent.

You can tell, or at least I can by physical signs. Loss of breath like taking deep gasps for breath is a sign or if you see there face turning beat red is another sign. No matter though usually the guys who have a lower pain tolerance shouldn't have those moves done to them anyway because they aren't and experienced wrestler. With a wrestler that hasn't wrestled often they don't need to be embarrased like that. I remember my eighth grade year I faced a kid from Colliervile TN. I was a second year wrestler, unlike JD lol, and missed weight and was wrestling a tough tough varsity team. They eventually beat us 89-0, ouch, ya we ran it seemed like all night after that loss. Coach also likes to play with numbers so every tenth of a pound we were off we had to do one hundred push ups. For ex. I was a pound and 2 tenths over so I had to do 1,200 push ups by the end of the day. He also made us do 89 laps around the gym. We got the point after that loss. Any ways I faced  tough kid and he scissored my body so hard that I started yelling. Ref called the pin and told me sorry but you were pinned so I couldn't stop the match. My point is on more experienced kids go for all the punishing moves, that are legal, you want ; but on younger kids it's not nessecary. The way younger kids should be brought up is having their teammates go out there and put them through pain for them just to start getting used to it until they can put the hurting on their opponent.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Freestyle does not allow guillotines which is an extremely painful move. 

Bottom line:  Like all sports there are rules.  These rules are set in place for the safety of the KIDS, and the preservation of the sport. 

If it was all about pain why not allow them to pull fingers back, hyperextend elbows and knees, wrench the neck, or take chicken wings past 90 degrees?  Even a crossface can be illegal, we all know this. 

Moves that can become illegal because of punishment.  Crossface, leg scissors, banana splits, front headlocks, any headlock that shuts off the carotid artery, even a half when the elbow is purposely forced past the head. 

But as someone stated GOOD officials will give you verbal warnings before they call it illegal and will also call it potentially dangerous, until you do it a second or third time. 

Wrestling with intensity and aggressiveness is one thing, but going out there to hurt or injure your opponent is another. I have seen wrestlers go out there with the intent of injury, not caring if they win or lose.  This is not what the sport is about.  And I am sure all of you will agree with me on that.

[dinubus 2]

Freestyle does not allow guillotines which is an extremely painful move. 

Bottom line:  Like all sports there are rules.  These rules are set in place for the safety of the KIDS, and the preservation of the sport. 

If it was all about pain why not allow them to pull fingers back, hyperextend elbows and knees, wrench the neck, or take chicken wings past 90 degrees?  Even a crossface can be illegal, we all know this. 

Moves that can become illegal because of punishment.  Crossface, leg scissors, banana splits, front headlocks, any headlock that shuts off the carotid artery, even a half when the elbow is purposely forced past the head. 

But as someone stated GOOD officials will give you verbal warnings before they call it illegal and will also call it potentially dangerous, until you do it a second or third time. 

Wrestling with intensity and aggressiveness is one thing, but going out there to hurt or injure your opponent is another. I have seen wrestlers go out there with the intent of injury, not caring if they win or lose.  This is not what the sport is about.  And I am sure all of you will agree with me on that.

1. The guillotine is a weak move that is easily reversed by anyone with an ounce of fight in them.  Not much of a punishment!

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is neccessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

[The Bear 0]

1. The guillotine is a weak move that is easily reversed by anyone with an ounce of fight in them.  Not much of a punishment!

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is neccessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

You must have not been around many good leg riders. It was hit and almost pinned one of our 3 time state champions. He did get out of it, but I'm sure he put up a fight. Especially long guys like Derrick Moore it's pretty easy to get that move so, I have to disagree with the first statement. Btw I had one of the best leg riders in the state down in my practice room so I would know IT IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT! It's because our coach taught it to be punishing  :evil: Like especially when you lock it over and you straighten your leg out you basically want to pin yourself it hurts so bad.

[grappler-of-old 44]

2.  Wrestling is all about "Intense LEGAL pain".  Of course safety is a concern.  I didn't say go out and break someones neck.  Just put them through as much pain as is necessary to make them never desire to set foot on the mat with you again.  So, again, it is not about "injuring your opponent" which is what you are changing it too, but yes - go ahead and hurt your opponent.  Those are 2 very different things.

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.  :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

[larry hinkle 0]

Danger, you're a dirty boy. :evil: (but funny)

he is such a man whore lol 8-)

[Sprawl135 0]

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.   :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

I couldn't agree more with that post

[vally285 0]

It becomes a punishing move when you begin to develope heaps of sand in your vagina.

i really agree with this guy

[dinubus 2]

You must have not been around many good leg riders. It was hit and almost pinned one of our 3 time state champions. He did get out of it, but I'm sure he put up a fight. Especially long guys like Derrick Moore it's pretty easy to get that move so, I have to disagree with the first statement. Btw I had one of the best leg riders in the state down in my practice room so I would know IT IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT! It's because our coach taught it to be punishing  :evil: Like especially when you lock it over and you straighten your leg out you basically want to pin yourself it hurts so bad.

No, I was a very good leg rider and it is a weak move.  Of course I hate tilts as well.  I like to put in something very nice and tight that the person can struggle all they want and things will only get worse.  That is why with my leg riding I liked power halves the best which is where I found the body scissor to be very benificial.  I also liked a person who would shoot with their head low between my legs as I could do a quick crotch lift while figure fouring thier head and have them pinned quite quickly.  Tight moves like double chicken wings, cradles, cowboys, etc.. are great moves.

[dinubus 2]

I agree 100% with this statement if and only if HURT means put your opponent in pain.  Pain is what makes your opponent do what you want them to. 

I think the work HURT is where we are disagreeing with.  When I hear hurt I think of injury, not just pain.  I agree make your opponent know you were there.  If you don't defeat them, let them know you were there, and make them think, "I beat that kid but I sure hope I don't have to wrestle him again." 

It seems this may be what you are referring to Dinubus.  If so sorry for the misunderstanding.   :-D

Back to the question at hand tho.  Yes a scissors can be called punishing, if the offensive wrestler is using it for only punishment and not truly trying to pin their opponent.  This is determined by a good referee.  Which sadly we have very few of in the great state of KY. 

In many cases its not the wrestlers fault but the lack of good officiating that allows abuse of rules such as this.  Get out there and rustle up some kids who can become our next great officials.

(OK that was my soapbox moment)

I do not believe in injuring a person on purpose.  It happens, but you should not do it on purpose.  I do like to hurt, and I believe that is what a "punishing" move does.  It hurts, but doesn't injure.  All moves for injury are illegal, so I am not sure how you can be a "punishing" wrestler if it means you are trying to injure.  I mean, arm locks, full nelsons, strangle holds, and all that jaz taught in martial arts are already illegal.

[d215 0]

dinubus just wanted to clarify are you a North Oldam wrestler.

[dinubus 2]

No, I am 32 years old, just a bit old to have wrestled for that program.