elementary scoring

[heavy83 15]

I just thought we start to get peoples opinion on how the youth assoc. may need to change scoring to make it easier and fair for both size teams.  My suggestions are: 1. Have small and large team champs. 2.Make all brackets like they do in the cyw for all ages(would have less rd. robins I think anyway) 3. Make all non-rd robin brackets scoring brackets. For the record this thread was not started to criticize but to help get different ideas to make it better for all teams of all sizes. After 2 yrs., this system needs to be altered to  give small teams a chance to win a state trophy. Also a large team not to punished for having too many good wrestlers. Please don't get on here if all you can do is rant and rave 'cause it doesn't help anything

[FCWC1 0]

This was originally posted on another page but should have been over here. Good suggestions on scoring above

Kids were split by age and weight. From there it is completely a blind draw. We did try to separate kids that were on the same team and place them in a different bracket from one another in the same weight class. Or if they were in the same bracket we moved them to the top and bottom so the would not face each other until the finals. But there was absolutely no SEEDING that took place. There is not enough history at this level to determine skill on 90% of the kids in the tournament. For the most part it worked pretty good with some good finals matches. There was not a lot of changes at the coaches meeting and some late changes were made because some coaches were not at the meeting. For the most part the coaches did a good job of reviewing their rosters.

Team scoring was based on top 4 finishers from each weight class. Unless you had kids from the same team finishing in the top 4. In that case you only got points for the highest scorer. If a kid did not wrestle due to no one in his weight class he was awarded a 1st place medal but did not score team points. NONE of this was our idea so don't shoot the messenger!! I was against team scoring period. The above method was developed to TRY and level the playing field for all teams. We obviously need to make some changes at the next meeting. This was an administrative NIGHTMARE to track and unfortunately was calculated in haste and incorrectly which had an adverse effect on 1st and 2nd.

My suggestion: A team can submit 20 wrestlers as scorers (as long as they are not in the same weight class). Only those wrestlers can score points. They can submit 60 kids to the tournament but the other 40 do not score team points (same as middle school duplicates). This would give smaller schools with good wrestler a chance to compete and you get a better idea of which school has the best wrestlers based on talent not numbers. The current system allows kids in 2,3,and 4 man round robins to place 2 - 4 and never win a match! Anyway you try to develop a TEAM scoring concept with an open non-qualifiying tournament it will be difficult to make it fair for everyone. I am just glad I don't have to worry about this type of scoring ever again!!

One final comment, someone made the statement that their child was not happy because he felt he was a "Paper Champion". I can't imagine an 8 year old figuring that out by his self. I tend to believe there was a parent that might have put that thought in his head. VERY UNFORTUNATE to ruin something special to 8 year old. He will have enough disappointment in life to come. Let them enjoy the day!

[sweetaspie 0]

FCWC1, thank you so much for explaining that there was not seeding and how the scoring worked.  Your answer explains a lot that I have wondered about for 2 years now.  I thought they split kids by separating the number 1 and number 2 kids.  Our coach may have knew this but didn't seem to explain it well at the tournament.

Does anyone know when the next association meeting is and is it open to parents?  Who are the officers for next year?

[LCFAN 0]

First of all.. GREAT JOB Fern Creek...and congratulations to all the wrestlers that attended...

Now... my opinion...

What about scoring the kids for the actual Elementary School that they attend....  ex.  LaRue County Wrestling Club  would be divided into Hodgenville Elementary and Abraham Lincoln Elementary .. etc...for scoring purposes...  my 9 wrestlers that attend HES would be wrestling and scoring points for HES and my 11 wrestlers that attend ALES would be scoring for ALES...  very few individual schools would have a substantial amount more wrestlers than any other elementary school... and since this is an Elementary School Tournament and not a club tournament the scoring would actually be more appropriate... OR... just do away with team scores altogether, BUT.. I understand that the  kids actually do understand that they are competing as a team... and that they want to perform well as a team... I didn't think that until Saturday when I watched the Ryle Raiders and Conner Cougars as they awaited the scoring to be announced... (Them boys was PUUUUMPED) and then fielded about 50 phone calls on my way home as my wrestlers all wanted to know how our small school stacked up against the big guys.....    Great job to all the wrestlers there btw....  :mrgreen:... anyway... just another idea being thrown out there

[JCB 2]

If you going to have a team score.  I would not have the 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 age groups be able to score.  team score.  Second, I would do away with the 5 match rule and have only 1 state champion per weight class.  This would give eliminate advantage of numbers. 

[Zeus 117]

I like that idea but it would take a lot of time to go through the brackets and keep track of each kid that is scoring.  Perhaps a better idea would be to take the team points and simply divide it by the number of kids you have in the tournament.  That way all kids would score, which would make it less complicated, all kids could score and therefore feel like they contributed plus it still represents skill and not simply numbers.

[plee 0]

If you going to have a team score.  I would not have the 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 age groups be able to score.  team score.   Second, I would do away with the 5 match rule and have only 1 state champion per weight class.  This would give eliminate advantage of numbers. 

I don't see the "numbers advantage" as a bad thing.  Why is that a bad thing?  If I was coaching a h.s. team, and we had 14 kids and the other team had 7....we have an advantage, and will probably win.  That's the way it goes.  If it's too hard for youth teams to fill all the weight classes, then get rid of some of the weight classes.

Honestly, why not have an individual state tourney with no team scores...and then have a dual meet state tournament for the team title the following weekend, or maybe the following day.  The team title could be like a 16 team dual meet tourney.  You could invite teams with the highest number of medal winners from the individual tourney in the oldest age group.  This has been discussed on this site before, but I think some other states (maybe Indiana & Wisconsin) do this for High School.  What a cool tournament the team tournament would be if it was a dual meet tournament!!!  Everyone is talking about the intense rivalry between Ryle & Conner in an individual tourney.  Can you imagine them 2 youth teams facing off for the finals in a dual meet? 

[papabear 2]

I don't see the "numbers advantage" as a bad thing.  Why is that a bad thing?  If I was coaching a h.s. team, and we had 14 kids and the other team had 7....we have an advantage, and will probably win.  That's the way it goes.  If it's too hard for youth teams to fill all the weight classes, then get rid of some of the weight classes.

Honestly, why not have an individual state tourney with no team scores...and then have a dual meet state tournament for the team title the following weekend, or maybe the following day.  The team title could be like a 16 team dual meet tourney.  You could invite teams with the highest number of medal winners from the individual tourney in the oldest age group.  This has been discussed on this site before, but I think some other states (maybe Indiana & Wisconsin) do this for High School.  What a cool tournament the team tournament would be if it was a dual meet tournament!!!  Everyone is talking about the intense rivalry between Ryle & Conner in an individual tourney.  Can you imagine them 2 youth teams facing off for the finals in a dual meet? 

Great idea!

[plee 0]

A team duals tournament, under lights with a face off for the finals.  would be very cool for the kids!

[Frank 0]

I don't see the "numbers advantage" as a bad thing.  Why is that a bad thing?  If I was coaching a h.s. team, and we had 14 kids and the other team had 7....we have an advantage, and will probably win.  That's the way it goes.  If it's too hard for youth teams to fill all the weight classes, then get rid of some of the weight classes.

Honestly, why not have an individual state tourney with no team scores...and then have a dual meet state tournament for the team title the following weekend, or maybe the following day.  The team title could be like a 16 team dual meet tourney.  You could invite teams with the highest number of medal winners from the individual tourney in the oldest age group.  This has been discussed on this site before, but I think some other states (maybe Indiana & Wisconsin) do this for High School.  What a cool tournament the team tournament would be if it was a dual meet tournament!!!  Everyone is talking about the intense rivalry between Ryle & Conner in an individual tourney.  Can you imagine them 2 youth teams facing off for the finals in a dual meet? 

Pat, You have a lot of experience in the youth wrestling trenches as a coach, administrator, parent & whatever else you could do to further this sport at every level and I appreciate your input. I am not nearly the expert you are on the subject but here are a few of my thoughts. They may be way out there in some opinions or they may make some sense. I am offering my "small" program point of view. It does not represent all "small" programs opinions or even my coaches, wrestlers or parents, Just mine. Here goes.....

  Numbers do not concern me. Big teams should be rewarded , Not penalized for having large successfull programs. With these large teams you have to have enough good coaches to make the kids good wrestlers. I understand that they "flood" the brackets but what else can they do? Tell the kids and the parents " You can't come this year. We don't want to flood the brackets and win." That was sarcasm. Everyone under the current rules are eligible to "hope" for a chance to medal. When you see a kid who had no chance at all, Draw a bracket that is somehow suited to his or her ability level and they place,That look on the kid and their parents face is priceless. They may never place again but they are hooked on the sport. Maybe have a first year state tournament?  I had 6 first year wrestlers place this year, Two were state champs 8 and 5 yrs. old, Young kids.

As far as scoring goes... Maybe we could submit 14 wrestlers in 14 different weight classes of our choice? Only the score keepers would know who is scoring for each team. That would make it very interesting. We could have 4 or 5 teams (large and small ) tie for first. Then it could go down to most pins and then to head to head with the team scorers. Some would be bound to meet in the tournament somewhere. Or you could modify this idea to a more practical format.

The team dual seems like the safest way to go (arguement wise) but I see one flaw with your idea. I'm not criticizing it in any way. The oldest kids will be almost all middle school kids as per the age limit in the bylaws. That kinda makes the whole elementary school tournament concept a load of crap doesn't it ( crap was for emphasis not anger)? Why don't we make any kid above 5th grade ineligible? That will get some people squirmin' Ha,ha,ha! Some teams were registered as a middle school team this year! What the..... I had a 5 year old preschooler at a public elementary school deemed ineligible because of the age deadline. I was told "we" (the board) want to keep it a "true" elementary tourmament. but kids with moustaches and underarm hair attending middle school can win a state elementary title. How many 12 year olds are really in 6th grade? 12 years old is middle school age period. Let alone 13 before 1/01/09. The 4 year old thing doesn't really bother me because he will be a placer or champion several times in the future.

  How many elementary schools in the state of Kentucky still have 6th grade? I have no clue. How many attending the state tournament have 6th grade? None in region 3 that I know of. I'm sure there are some but i'm not aware of them.

Anyway, I don't think small programs need a separate championship. I use it to measure how much we have improved. Every year we score more points and have more placers and finish around the same place. I couldn't be happier with our teams success.

I know the bylaws are not perfect, and I cannot always make the meetings so I can only voice my opinion here,      Unfortunately. I will attend the meetings that I can.

As I said before, This is my opinion only and does not represent any other persons view. Comment any way you wish these are not concrete suggestions I understand that they can be modified or disregarded. :-D

 

[plee 0]

I had a 5 year old preschooler at a public elementary school deemed ineligible because of the age deadline. I was told "we" (the board) want to keep it a "true" elementary tourmament. but kids with moustaches and underarm hair attending middle school can win a state elementary title.

:-D :-D  That's some funny stuff right there.  You have some good points, and I'm definitely being a monday morning quarterback here.  So by all means, feel free to disagree with my suggestion.  I have just always been a big fan of the dual meet tournament championship for crowning the team champ.  Other states do this at the h.s. level, and it is truly different than the way our state crowns the team champ.  Last year Trinity won the h.s. state duals, but Union County won state (by a large margin).  Who was the better TEAM?  Honestly, Trinity was.  They won head to head.  Union County had more true studs, but Trinity had a more balanced team.  I can't see it any other way, if you beat a team in a dual meet head to head, you are the better team.

Anyway, more importantly then crowning the "true champ", it's just way easier scoring wise to do a dual meet format.  You don't have to worry about seeding and the top 2 kids meeting in the first round, etc.  It seems every year after elementary state there is a controversy over the brackets or the team score or something.  If team scoring is truly important, then I think what I suggested above would be an improvement over what's done today. 

As far as the age limit issue, if that's a big deal then I guess change the bylaws to make sure kids are in the 6th grade and below.  Whatever makes the most sense.  I don't know.  How do other states determine the cut off?

[JCB 2]

The age issue should be simple; either uses the KHSAA eligible date or the date of the regional tournament.  If a 6th grader is eligible to wrestle his senior year in high school he should be eligible to wrestle the elementary tournament.  However, if we do not use the KHSAA date the only other logical date would be the age of the regional tournament.  By using another date being into questions the organization integrity and mission of promoting elementary wrestling. 

We talk a lot about promoting the sport of elementary wrestling however; at times we seem to legislate in the other direction.  By making the age cutoff date 1-1-1996 as in the current bylaws we did not allow the 13 year olds born from 8-1-1995 till 12-31-1995 to wrestle.  Nevertheless we did allow the 13 year old born between 1-1-09 and 3-6-09 to wrestle.  No sure how the 1-1-1996 cutoff date promotes the sport of elementary wrestling or even has any logic to it.