MLee

Thanks for the suggestion. Any idea where I can find the format? I've looked around and couldn't find it.

Any suggestions for State Duals, Mike?

JW, not speaking for Raidercoach, (he does a good job doing that on his own) but Union, KY is not a highly populated area. I believe we have less than 6,000 people. We do pull some from Florence, KY, but the majority of our kids are not from there.

Ha, I agree it has done well. That is precisely why I didn't understand the big push to change it.

What would you attribute it to then? The 10% rule was created by more informed coaches and ambassadors of the sport. The idea didn't just drop out of the sky. The higher levels are organized enough to implement hydration tests and weight management programs to monitor. The youth cannot decide on team scores or not.

Ranger, you seem to dismiss the obvious point in this debate: the results. With the 10% rule, weight cutting has been "almost" eliminated. With set weight classes, almost all kids drop a few lbs. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. You can try (which I bet you will) but you'd be wrong. I wrestled in pre-10% rule, Cincinnati youth tournaments as a kid...cutting weight was rampant. Almost every wrestler on our team did it. Almost every kid on the opposing teams did it. It was the norm. Fast forward 20+ years. I coach a youth team of over 100 kids and I have not seen 1 kid attempt to lose weight...not 1.

Well, I guess you're correct...you cannot eliminate stupid. If coaches/parents want their kids to drop weight for the sake of dropping weight although there is CLEAR evidence it doesn't help, go right ahead. You can create all the hypotheticals you'd like, but w/ set weight classes, dropping weight is common. W/out, it is ALMOST eliminated.

Plantman, with all due respect, you are completely wrong. I particpated in Cincinnati tournaments as a kid well before the 10% rule. I recall seeing "kids" in plastics and spitting in cups prior to tournaments. You don't see that activity anymore. But don't take my word for it, ask the officials of CYW and other organizations around the country that have adopted it. They'll tell you the same. Look at the logic behind dropping weight for a 10% rule tournament. Say Johnny weighs 70 lbs naturally. Crazy dad/coach tells little Johnny he needs to drop 3 lbs for the tournament. He now weighs 67. Random draw puts Johnny in bracket 67-72 lbs. Now let's contrast that with set weight classes. Weight classes are set 65, 67, 70, 73... Little Johnny now drops to 67 to get to a bracket full of 70 lbers that dropped to 67!

"Gotta give some specific examples of the big events using the 10% rule." Army Midwest Nationals

Ranger, are you trying to say the 10% rule does not help prevent weight cutting?

There is absolutely no reason or incentive to lose weight w/ the 10% rule. The next time you see a kid lose weight under the 10% rule, explain to him that by losing weight he might end up being the lightest kid in his weight class and by gaining weight, he might end up being the heaviest. You just cannot predict. Define post season? Cincinnati uses the 10% rule for their "year end" City Wide Tournament. Many youth tournaments around the country don't set the weight classes until weigh ins.

One of the initial concerns I have is participation. If we cannot get a strong enough commitment from the clubs around the state, we're dead in the water.

I agree, but doesn't the 10% rule eliminate this from being an issue? Shouldn't the rules and bylaws focus on the safety of the kids first? You said it yourself, there will be some coaches that will push kids to make a weight class. There will also be some parents that will push their kids to weight cut (I've seen it firsthand). Also, don't underestimate an over-zealous kid keeping his weight down on his own. If we posted the youth weight classes at the beginning of the year, there would be weight cutting going on throughout our state. We could not stop it. And before people use other states as an example, remember the 10% rule is relatively new. A lot of the major states who've had youth wrestling for a lot longer than KY are moving towards it.

It would be more than a few adjustments. There would be multiple weight classes of 20+. In these situtations, how do you separate? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having "true" state champions? Is anyone concerned about posting weight classes at the beginning of the season and having youth kids try to maintain a certain weight class for an entire season?

I'm not a big fan of a 12 year old against an 8 year old either, but not sure how to avoid that w/out creating age divisions. One idea is to create divisions only in the common overlapping weight classes, like an A and a B based on age. I've seen this done in other dual formats. I'll be sure to investigate. I would want to see each program's best kids, regardless if they wrestle Middle School or not. Not sure why we'd want to exclude the top youth wrestlers for an event like this just because they're good. As long as they are of age/weight, they should be elgible.

What about team seeding? I liked the idea of using the the State Tournament as a way to seed, but as of today, we no longer have team scores. Any suggestions?

OK, that's how we'll do it.

This looks like a good start. Question: how do we (or should we) divide up the ages?

Thanks for the suggestions. 5 lb increments might be a bit much at the lower weights. I'll look at the previous State Tournaments and other Youth tournaments as a guide for the weight classes.

This comes from Stan Martin, who helped write the Youth Bylaws: - Weight classes, there are true weight classes at all youth events. They are grouped from the lowest weight to the highest, 8 kids at a time unless there is a greater than 10% difference from the lowest weight. We tried having set weight classes in the 1st couple state tourneys, USA Wrestling weights. Over 50% of the brackets had less than 4 kids making the tournament have over 120 brackets. The 10% rule dropped the brackets to 87 with 79 full brackets. So, do you want to be the state champ of a 4 man or 8 man bracket? Why do you care if it is a published bracket or a floating one? Are we here to wrestle or win a PRE-DETERMINED weight class This topic has been discussed at great lengths. In addition to the reasons Stan mentioned, I am not a fan of set weight classes for one key reason: it promotes weight cutting. I have watched 8 year old kids at "set weight" tournaments cutting weight. There is no way to stop it, unless we adopt some type of hydration testing like they do at the High School level, which will never happen. The 10% rule not only works out better logistically, but also is a safer alternative. There isn't an incentive for kids to lose weight because you cannot predict the weight classes. As far as the Dual Tournament, not sure how to do it w/out set weight classes. I'm open to any suggestions you might have Plantman.

We can take a look at other formats being used around the country. I've seen where dual formats will use an (A) and ( participant in the same weight as will as different age divisions. I'm open to anything at this point. 25 weight classes was the # that seemed right too. I'll take a look at the past 2 years and throw something out there. We have time, but I'd like to have everything completed before the season begins. Thanks for your help and feedback.

We do 2 sessions for the Youth Tournament, each running about 3 hours long. Logistically, it works better to do multiple sessions for various reasons. For starters, asking a 5 or 6 year old to stay at a mat all day can be difficult. Also, if we had all 1000 kids and their families in the facility at once, it would be a zoo. Not sure it would be very enjoyable.

Cmon Ranger, I was hoping for a little more. Not just a pat on the back and a subtle potshot. Suggestions on dates? Weight Classes? Would CC attend? Can you or anyone from your club help out w/ the organizing?

That was another suggestion that has been brought up in the past. I like it too. If that was the format, we would have to allow all participant's team points be included in my opinion. I think the best compromise is having some type of team scoring at the State Tournament and have State Duals. I have already begun the process of getting State Duals back. We have a really nice facility that is willing to work with us on a date. We've used it for our off-season training and a camp we had this week. I believe it is an ideal place for a great event. Maybe we can have the proceeds go towards helping new clubs? Just a thought. I'm going to start a new topic in hopes to get some good feedback. As far as the name calling, I agree. I'm all for a heated debate, but it seems a bit trivial to resort to that.

We would need Lake Erie to flood half the state in order for that to happen.