rjs4470
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Posts posted by rjs4470
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1 hour ago, JKennedy said:The cost of any of these arenas should be drastically reduced for KHSAA as they are all part of State Funded Educational Institutions. To be even more pointed, KHSAA has Rupp Arena for the KY High School Basketball championship Sweet 16 scheduled for 4 days. Wrestling doesn't require 4 consecutive days, so cost shouldn't be legitimate reason to deny the venue.
Remember, the Sweet 16 generates over $1 million in ticket sales. UK Healthcare is also a sponsor which probably offsets a significant chunk of the total price.you really can’t compare the sweet 16 to any other state championship in KY….it is the cash cow and supports many of the other sports.
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4 hours ago, tcats said:7 hours ago, rjs4470 said:The schools have to be willing to work their basketball schedule around to accommodate wrestling. I have no idea if they are willing to do so or not. They also hold concerts and other events that could possibly be more lucrative than hosting a wrestling tournament, so it's not just basketball. It doesn't help that schools like UK, or any one else with a big arena don't have wrestling programs. So it's not just as simple as asking them to host....they also have to either want to host, or be willing to work schedules around to host. Doesn't mean someone shouldn't ask, but without even thinking about the cost (which is likely prohibitive based on the revenue generated), all these locations have to WANT to host the tournament enough to be willing to work their events
The KHSAA needs to ask the questions to the schools and arenas. There are venues that are willing to work with the KHSAA on price( the Expo center was offered for free).
Is the KHSAA a money making business or are they a governing body for student athletes that offers those athletes the chance at an experience of a lifetime. That of a high school state championship.Obviously, the KHSAA is a governing body. But they also have to be prudent, and run like a business. They can’t ignore budgets, and have to make smart business decisions. They also have to answer to the BOE, and ultimately the state government. Thare not an independent organization with complete autonomy and free will.
I would agree they need to at least ask the arena’s if they are interested in hosting. But being interested is only the first part.
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1 hour ago, DrBaker said:I can’t understand how basketball has them all tied up. It’s 2 days. Just play an away game that weekend or play Sunday.
The schools have to be willing to work their basketball schedule around to accommodate wrestling. I have no idea if they are willing to do so or not. They also hold concerts and other events that could possibly be more lucrative than hosting a wrestling tournament, so it's not just basketball. It doesn't help that schools like UK, or any one else with a big arena don't have wrestling programs. So it's not just as simple as asking them to host....they also have to either want to host, or be willing to work schedules around to host. Doesn't mean someone shouldn't ask, but without even thinking about the cost (which is likely prohibitive based on the revenue generated), all these locations have to WANT to host the tournament enough to be willing to work their events around it.
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14 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:I’m not sure what Corbin Arena charges, but middle school and youth were held over a weekend. There were over 1,300 youth wrestlers competing and they were done by 7pm the same day (Strayer, Carr and crew did a phenomenal job). I realize there are different rule sets for high school and middle school regarding competition. My point is, Corbin Arena was big enough to accommodate 1,300 wrestlers + parents and 10 mats. If KYUSA has it in their budget to run a tournament like that, while sparing no expense for medals, I’m pretty sure KHSAA has the budget for it as well. Makes you wonder how much they’ve pocketed since COVID. Guaranteed, the profit margins have been gigantic over the last couple of years. If they plan to run it remotely (can’t imagine how efficient that is), then venue location is immaterial.
I would say most of that rental fee comes from the $30 they charge per wrestler. That would be almost $50k in entry fees between MS and Youth.
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38 minutes ago, BigBossMan said:Do you think the KHSAA pays 4 days x $30,000 for Rupp Arena?
I believe you can find the P&L’s for the sweet 16 somewhere out there. The last financial statement I could find (2018)’showed total expenses of $465k for the boys Sweet 16. So it looks like they might have. Not to mention they do over $1M in ticket sales, and who know how much in sponsorship so they can certainly afford to pay that much for that event.
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1 hour ago, Alf said:Pikeville is very nice. Can walk from the hotels to the arena. Lots of restaurants. Far from the western end of the state, but If you’re coming to GRC what is another 2 hours for a better experience. I was at Ryle, the tournament was a mess. Weights were out of order, kids were confused on when to warm up. Stands were packed, you had to literally climb over gear and each other to get to your seats. I have been to many a tournament at Ryle and they always run a quick top notch tournament, so I assumed the KHSAA was involved in running.
The KHSAA ran it remotely from Lexington. Which was a bad decision.
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8 minutes ago, DrBaker said:Seems to me that a college could donate their arena and keep concessions or?
Moorehead, Lindsay Wilson, Wesleyan, Bellarmine, Midway, Northern, Murray? Couldn’t those others free up one weekend?
Didn’t Pikeville say they’d donate? It’s a long drive for West Ky, but it’s very nice.Concessions are contracted out and ran by an outside source for just about every arena. Thus the arenas aren't making a ton off of concessions...just whatever the negotiated split with the service provider is, so "keeping concessions" as a payment isn't really a moneymaking proposition. It's also why it's unfair to hold the KHSAA accountable for food prices....they (and the arenas) literally have no say in the matter.
The smaller schools you mention like Lindsey and Bellarmine don't have big enough arena's to host the state tourney. Morehead, Northern and Murray are locked into their own basketball seasons. I have no idea about Wesleyan or Midway, but I suspect size is a problem in those two places as well.
I think to entertain holding state in a larger arena, if you can get costs into an acceptable range, the season would have to change to hold state at a later date. Which then starts conflicting with the KhSAA basketball tournament, which is their cash cow.
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One of the problems with all the college arenas is timing. The state tournament would have to shift dates back so as not to conflict with the college basketball season. I doubt any college arena is willing to bounce their mens and women's basketball schedules around to host a high school wrestling tournament. That being said, I don't think most would have an issue with pushing the tournament back a couple of weeks, which would also mean pushing the season start back a little (which I also don't see as an issue).
Clearly something needs to be done. I wasn't at semi state, but I've talked to a few who were, and at least at Ryle, it seems like it was not a well run event. I was told the tournament was being run remotely from Lexington, which seems like a silly decision and probably contributed to the amount of time it took to run the tournament. I've defended the KHSAA in the past, because I know several BOC members and understand the work they do and some of the issues they face. However, what's happening here is not defendable.
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2 hours ago, GentleBeard said:Maybe it’s just where we are located, but I didn’t see many confrontations that got out of hand to the point coaches were getting booted. In fact, I could name drop a few refs who have gone above and beyond to show respect to coaches, improve relationships, listen to concerns, but also remain mentally tough when coaches get amped up over perceived calls that don’t go their way. The fact we can have a discussion about a call with an open mind and low probability of getting offended or giving misconducts has been a nice change. I know I appreciate the hell out of that. Unfortunately, I doubt those refs will get the spotlight at state. That’s how it usually works.
I don't disagree, and I should add your experience mirrors what I've experienced. I was referring to parents rather than coaches, and should have stated that more clearly. I've seen very few coaches get booted over the last decade or so, and none that I can remember are wrestling coaches, and that's at any level....youth, MS, HS. Yes, I've seen a few wrestling coaches get hit with team point deductions, but even in those situations, the coaches have taken their medicine, and there have been no further issues. I'd even go so far as to say that wrestling coaches are generally better behaved than coaches of other sports.
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16 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:I know I may be opening a can of worms here but::::::. I would like to hear from some older officials that have been around for a long long time.
My question is this. are the coaches questioning/complaining/arguing more, less, or about the same as in the past. I have been around for a long long time and I'm not sure I see a huge difference in the coaches now compared to yesteryear. I actually believe that the coaches are arguing less. You don't have the Joe Carr Sr. (Woo), Dave Madding (Scott) who would question or complain all the time. I think that many officials have gotten rabbit ears. Coaches in the corner will complain to each other about a call and the officials hear it and it gets to them.
It's the one problem our whole society is facing, a little criticism or disagreement does not have to end the world, especially if it is not directly said to you.
Then again I am probably wrong. My wife tells me I am all the time.
I've found that across many sports (at least the ones I've been or my kids have been involved in, Baseball, Football, Basketball and wrestling) that the age of the kids is inversely related to the grief that officials get. The younger the participant, the worse the officials get treated. Which might explain why it's harder to get officials at non high school events.
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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:Wrestling 135 teams 3 divisions. Abut 45 per division.
Football 211 teams (unless I missed one or two) 6 divisions about 35 per division.
How is this any different? Yet no-one seems to complain about football.
People complain about 6 classes in football ALOT. Just visit any message board around playoff time, and you'll see plenty of calls to return to 4 divisions, or that things are "too watered down". Just like how so many constantly harp on the fact that Ky basketball is the best thing going because there is only one state champ.
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14 hours ago, SeanR said:Update: Matt is is 5 and 5 wrestling varsity as a sophomore. However his last few matches were against football powerhouses that were weak wrestling programs. He was wrestling up at the 190 class (now given 2 extra lbs so its 192) although he is down to 181 lbs due to his diet (which is perfect...I do diets as part of my job for a living). He was helping out the team but I want him wrestling at 177 lbs. He will be walking around at 178-179 by next week, so 177 is easy.
I started a wrestling club at the MMA school where I used to teach BJJ and and (my son) did TKD there 10 years ago. He has also boxed and done BJJ since it was impossible to find a wrestling club close by. So how he has a place to train off season. The owner of the school is also a big fight promoter, who is familiar with Matts striking skills (he has excellent natural boxing). If you are familiar with MMA training, the catch is that great grapplers don't always make great strikers, and vice versa. Matt is good at both, so although my son is only 15 the fight promoter has offered him free training and free room and board in Austin (we live near Houston). Basically he has a full MMA scholarship. But I want him focusing on wrestling and going to college (especially since he has only been wrestling for a little over 3 years). Having said that, MMA is something for him to fall back on. Wrestlers dominate MMA (half the top guys in the UFC started as wrestlers). Every legitimate MMA school has a wrestling coach, so his background would open a career in coaching. A wrestler who also has striking training is what schools are looking for. He could coach as a way for paying for college.
Of course I want him doing what he wants to do, but there are absolutely no opportunities for him in football, and many, many in martial arts. Yes there are kids that play both football and wrestle in high school sometimes make it in college...but these are kids that had 4-5 years of wrestling under their belt BEFORE high school. Had Matt wrestled in Junior High school he would have been better prepared, but God bless Texas his junior high school did not have wrestling.
So clearly focusing wrestling is going to be far, far better for his future...but as has been said, kids have to make their own decisions, no matter how dumb.You've talked a lot about his athletic future, but as I'm sure you know, his academic and career future is WAY more important, and his career will most likely not be related to wrestling, MMA or any other sport. I can understand the desire to see him succeed athletically, but from all your descriptions it seems like he is an average wrestler. It's really tough to bridge that gap from average to elite/the level where future opportunities will become accessible at this point in his wrestling career. I don't mean this to sound critical, but everything you've spoke about sounds like your dreams for him and his future as opposed to what he really wants to do. He's got to decide what he wants to do on his own, and for 95% of the world, a full time career competing in and coaching sports is just not a reasonable expectation. Even many of those that do move on to the next level, a good portion of those are done after a year or two. And careers beyond college in wrestling are extremely limited. Not saying it isn't ok to dream a little, despite your good intentions, it feels like he is being pushed along a path that will likely end in failure. It's perfectly ok to be an average athlete, have fun while doing it, and to get on with your life when your high school career is over.
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20 minutes ago, SeanR said:Greetings, and thank you in advance for your gracious answer. My son is a young high school sophomore wrestler (birthday at end of summer). He is a naturally gifted wrestler, however he has less than 3 years of wrestling experience and only 1 year of competative experience. He did well his freshman year wrestling JV going 19 and 5. However he is now Varsity, and not doing well. I do not focus upon wins and losses, but upon technique, execution, and scoring points. I help coach his teammates and the ones I coach are all doing very well. My son is weaker than the older kids he wrestles yet relies too much upon strength. According to his coaches (and me) the solution to his problem is he needs more mat time. We are all sure that if he wrestled more he would become an extraordinary wrestler. I have never pushed him hard in wrestling until now, but feel that now is the time for him to get serious.
The problem is football. He spends 5 months a year playing and is OK (he is a big kid, wrestles at 190 lbs) but does not have a lot of potential at football (runs a 4.9 40). Like I said, he has great potential (excellent hips) at wrestling and would be a world beater if he wrestled year around.
Last night, after 2 tough losses (he only had 7 practices because of football season) I told him that I loved him, supported him....but that he needed to focus on wrestling year around if he wanted to realize his potential. 3 other coaches agreed with me, but is it possible for me to convince my son? As things are right now, he is going to be a mediocre football player and wrestler, whereas if he focused on wrestling year around (I also am a strength and conditioning coach, so he is covered there) he would be great. I would arrange my work schedule so that I could personally drive him to the wrestling club 2-3 days a week (his off season schedule, I don't want to burn him out) and weight train him myself.
On the other hand, is it impossible for a father to do this sort of ting with his son, so I just need to let him fail? My son really likes and enjoys wrestling, but also likes football (even though he does not start).I'd let the kid play whatever sports he wanted at whatever level he is comfortable with. I would never encourage a kid to specialize or not play another sport. You've only got one opportunity to play high school sports. I've been down this road, and there is no better way to burn a kid out or damage your relationship than by making him quit something he likes to do and force him to specialize. If he makes that choice on his own, great---but I wouldn't push it. You could also maybe even make the argument he could be great at football if he specialized and trained year round (I could do a lot of damage on the football field with a bunch of 190lb kids who could run sub 5.0 40's and I'd say he's got pretty good potential at football too). The bottom line is our goals may not, and likely won't always align with our children's goals. And that being said what is his ultimate goal? And you have to keep in mind that very few go on to play either sport at the next level, and fewer actually get scholarships.
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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:I really like this post. I am one to agree with Nkawtg about the year round thing. But individuals have the right to make their own decisions on this. This event cannot occur on or after Oct 15th. It would then be an in-season event. Football starts on July 10 (Helmets) Baseball ends around June 17th. Kentucky dead period was June 25 through July 9th.
That would only leave a small opening from June 18th to June 24th for no conflicts in Ky. I have no idea if something nationally is occurring during this time.
I always thought this was just a preview event. Trying to get the top ranked kids to participate if they can. Something to get our juices flowing going into the season. I have been around for a very long time and have seen the sport grow tremendously, all due to people like Ranger who have put their own time in to make it grow. I personally have not attended this event (I barely have enough time to take care of my own business) but I follow to see the results.
Take it for what it is. Try to improve it, try to promote it, try to attend it. Or just sit back and let it happen. Really doesn't matter which you do or don't do, in the end it only helps wrestling in the state of KY. Would be awesome if each area of the state held their own to make a culminating event at the end with all the winners.
As far as the year round point, pretty much every high school sport has a percentage (which is growing) of those who participate on a year round basis. Wrestling is no different, and certainly isn't the worst. Football might be the worst of the all the sports, with a long season (July-November for everyone), spring ball, off season lifting programs, and June practices. Serious football only players get maybe December and a piece of January off. Ranger isn't pushing year round participation on anyone. He's simply there for those who want to take advantage of it.
This event has always been fun, and for what it's worth, has always had a few football players participating. If a top wrestler is a football player, and they want to participate, they'll find a way to make it happen. The timing of the event is really perfect...close enough to the start of the season to generate interest and serve as a nice tune up to kick things off, but not so close that it doesn't interfere with anything.
I will simply never understand the part of the wrestling community in this state that constantly find any and everything to complain about.
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2 hours ago, MLee said:I agree its a huge commitment to wrestle, but it's not unlike other sports.
Track events are filled with kids and spectators. The time waiting to time participating ratio is very similar to wrestling. Know of any travel baseball or select soccer families? You don't see them in the Spring/Summer. AAU Bball kids play games on Saturday's and Sunday's. During their off days, I'd say a similar % are getting additional skills training. Although HS games are on Friday night, most good HS Fball teams have film study and workouts Saturday mornings. My daughter does competitive cheer (unfortunately). She goes 6 days a week. Hell, nobody practices more than our local HS band!
I don't think the commitment spooks kids. Poorly ran programs and events turn kids/parents off. I agree, we can reduce the time spent at the gyms, but I don't think that is the main issue with participation.
Track isn't every weekend, and it's outside. In terms of number of days, wrestling is comparable to other sports, but the big difference is is 2-3 hours (tops) vs 8+hours for wrestling. Also, as a parent you don't have to watch your kid get physically beaten up in those other sports which coupled with being stuck in a gym for a whole day can make things unbearable for parents and kids. Of course, the reason we are so big tournament focused is because with so many partial teams, it's the only way you can guarantee your guys get matches.
I do believe depth has dropped dramatically. There are teams that were really good a few years ago that are now on life support. And where there might have been 10 really solid kids in a weight class, now in many, there are only a handful.
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3 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:Pennsylvania has triple the population of Kentucky, but that isn't a great excuse when Oklahoma(.5 million less) and Iowa(1.4 million less) have much greater success than we do. What it comes down to is a lack of coaches. Specifically, a lack of coaches who are committed beyond the season. No division one teams in the last 30 years/a low number of other college programs are a major contributor to this.
True, but where do the coaches come from? They come from our current wrestlers. The more you grow the numbers, the more possible future coaches you'll have. But the way we run our season with all day Saturday tournaments comprising most of the season, there's a huge obstacle to getting young guys who might have or will be having families into the coaching ranks.
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On 5/4/2022 at 11:11 AM, grappler-of-old said:This is something I have had a hard time understanding for a long time. So many people want to compare us to other states. Up here in Nky we unfairly compare ourselves to Ohio. WHY?
I don't really care about what Ohio kids are like. I am only worried about KY. Ky has become such a have and have not wrestling community. We really do not have a middle class in wrestling. You have the Unions, Trinity's, Ryle's and the other elite programs. Then you have most other programs, with 6-10 wt classes filled, who may have 1 or 2 above average wrestlers on the team.
Many are trying to get ahead of ourselves. Trying to make all our kids into national powerhouses. First we need to stabilize the programs we have and expand the number of programs. When these programs are regularly getting 10-14 wt. classes filled with competent wrestlers, then we can build the powerhouse kids. (Not filling wt. classes with 1st year kids just to fill a spot)
This is why we need a 32 man bracket. So more kids are wrestling at the state tournament and get a taste of what it is like. Then they have a want and need to get better so they can place at the state. All this helps build programs up. Those that have been around a while will remember I was against the 32 man bracket at the beginning. I have seen the plus side of this. We have went from about 80-85 school programs to now about 110. I believe this is because of the 32 man bracket.
I am not begrudging those who are trying to build nationally elite wrestlers, just remember, as a state we are not there yet. We are getting closer every year and I hope I am still around to at least see Ky wrestling considered a great state for wrestling.
**As always these are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less. You can take them or leave them. In the grand scheme of things it really does not matter.
GOO out
I agree. I can understand wanting to compete nationally. And we've had more than a few have some success on a national level. But I believe the drive to to be more competitive nationally has ultimately hurt our numbers overall because we are trying to train everyone to be elite. And that's driving the average kids out of the sport.
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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:I personally have never understood the confusion with age participation in middle school.
KHSAA has a maximum age requirement. If you use that rule as a guideline and subtract 4 year (the 4 years they would be in high school) you should get the maximum age for a middle school student. That way they can still get 4 years of high school eligibility.
Now I know that there is a wrinkle because of COVID. KHSAA has allowed for a repeat year this year in response to COVID. This should also trickle down to the middle school.
You don't have to agree with the rule, but you must abide by the rule and respect the rule until it is changed.
I am very old school and we are now living in a world where everyone gets their feelings hurt and I really don't understand it.
But like MaMa always told me "suck it up buttercup and get better", "worry only about yourself and not what someone else is doing". (I don't argue with MaMA)
Even with the extra year athletes could have gotten because of covid, the rules regarding age stayed the same. So there technically isn't anybody who is competing that would have been "too old" prior to covid.
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2 hours ago, gator1 said:I think the more important point is that the bylaws no longer matter. Meeting minutes are our new constitution.
I feel sorry for the younger generation on wrestlers coming through this organization. I've coached youth and middle school for the past 6 years and watched us degrade year over year.
The decline started rapidly once the State Tourney got moved from Broadbent. The talk about shifting the season, and the overall quality of the event and middle school wrestling in general has taken taken steps back since then.
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4 hours ago, coachteater said:Baseball is at Legends field, not uk. But still at a nice none school facility
This year it is being held at KY Proud park at UK.
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8 hours ago, GentleBeard said:Your email was listed on the email that got sent to 67 coaches as well as the link to all the coaches associated with the KYMWR list serve.
I know I did receive that email , even though I haven’t been a middle school coach for 5 or 6 years. I didn’t attend the meeting.
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2 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:Track is at UK.
soccer is PLD I believe.
vb unknown.
why not host it at western Ky uni. Plenty big facility, wrestling in Bowling green. Semi centrally located.
Volleyball is at now at GRC after being held at Valley High School for many years.
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1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:If evaluations/rankings/rating scales work in other states, why can't they work in Kentucky? The officials association is not a corporate entity like you mention. A google form with objective questions with scales is not a hard thing to keep track of, nor does it cost a tremendous amount of money. It doesn't take as much time as you think it would to complete, either (5 minutes, tops). I mean, if Ranger can rank the top 30 kids across 14 weight classes, evaluating 80-100 refs would be a piece of cake - especially if they had PIN's instead of names. Where there's a will, there's a way.
All I'm saying is I think this is attacking the problem the wrong way. Like I've said 1000 times, all the accountability in the world means nothing if we don't have enough officials. Fixing this problem starts with having enough officials so that any form of accountability lessens the amount the bad officials work. The less proficient officials have to work now at the high school level because we don't have enough to go around. The other issue is of the 86 officials we currently have, how many are truly bad? Does it make sense to to put even more pressure on the good officials by rating their every move and possibly run them off to weed out the dozen or so bad ones? Especially with the reality that because of low numbers the bad ones are going to end up working anyway? Fix the low numbers first. Once we get that right, work on the accountability more if you need to, although I still say this should not be totally in the hands of coaches, who naturally aren't unbiased. I've never yet seen a coach to ask a ref to overturn a bad call that went in his wrestlers favor. And I've run enough tournaments to know that I can't even get coaches to fill out an MOW ballot that takes 1 minute to fill out and turn in. A 5 minute form isn't anymore likely to get filled out. Which means the only ones you'll get returned are the ones that are negative.
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8 minutes ago, GooglyMoogly said:Hard to evaluate your buddies/peers effectively. I am not saying assignors shouldn't be a part of the process, but they shouldn't be the only form of evaluating officials either. I was talking to my high school coach yesterday and he was pretty blown away that we don't have a way to evaluate officials. We are way behind the state he coaches in, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to elevate the level of wrestling here.
Agreed. But it's also hard to objectively evaluate someone you're mad at for making a call that you think is wrong, especially in the heat of the moment. And the reality is, that call may have actually been right. Plus evaluating someone's performance is a skill, and not something everyone can be effective at doing. How do you insure there are standards in place, and that they are followed? These aren't insurmountable issues, but if coaches suddenly hold so much weight in a ref's evaluation, it could start influencing the way they call matches. You're certainly going to call matches differently if you know your ability to work future events is based on a coaches opinion of you.
Doing evaluations is hard. Companies spend lots of money, training and time to make sure they are done correctly at the corporate level. And to do them well, also takes time and effort. I'm not sure that adding this to a coaches already full plate is the most effective way to solve the problem.
Why isn't state going to be seeded?
in High School Wrestling
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I feel the event should be seeded too, but the KHSAA literally doesn’t seed any state tournament, except to a certain extent, football. All other state tournaments are random draws.