The Great Debate - Public vs. Private

[pistlpete 0]

Nowhere in my posts did I say that Trinity did not perform some good. There are some fine people at that school. There are many, many hours logged for community service from all schools. It's a requirement at most if not all high schools. However, the bad cannot hide behind the good. Everyone in Jefferson Co. and throughout most of the state knows what kind of garbage goes on with their athletics. If Trinity truly wants genuine respect, it does not come in the form of wins on the athletic field. Respect is gained from dealing squarely with people. The American College Dictionary defines ethics as "The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession.". They are obviously not doing so. Trinity does not govern by the same set of rules or standards in athletics as every other school in the state. I will admit that it is everybody's fault and not just Trinity's. They are merely taking advantage of hugh loopholes in the rules and/or relaxed enforcement of the rules. That still does not make it right or ethical. One last note, my statement concerning CAL was not based on religion. I would not hesitate to send my kid or kids to St. X or CAL if a good public school option were not present.

Please do not add any other posts to this thread concerning Trinity. This thread was and is intended to thank Ranger and I am sorry that it transformed . I will honor that intent of the thread. Thanks Ranger.

[CoachK 2]

And there is no way any money from a local supporter could mysteriously find it's way in account outside of the place in Ohio...right....like saying noone in college gets extras either because they are regulated...

Whatsoever you did for the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me (Mt 25:40)

Trinity is committed to the values of compassion and personal responsibility. The long tradition of Catholic social teaching and action is grounded in the belief of the dignity of all humans and that people have a right and a duty to participate in society, seeking together the common good and well-being of all, especially the poor and vulnerable. We strive to guide students toward a path of compassion, responsibility and morality – this is why we place such an emphasis on service projects. Trinity hosts school-wide projects that benefit And therethe Red Cross, Dare to Care, Catholic Relief Services and many more. In addition, students have an individual service requirement for each class.

Above is from Trinity's website. Yea, admitting to harboring animosity towards a school that stands for compassion and personal responsibility definitely isn't misplaced bitterness at all. The graduating class logged over 20,000 hours of community service...that same community in which you are blessed enough to call home. CAL is an awsome school, but what if the boys are Catholic?! Why wouldn't they want to attend Trinity soley based on that? You continue to wallow and moan about the sports when it is only a small part of why families choose Trinity. Trinity and St. X's reputations stand on their own merrit...sports aside. I have no hidden agenda. It's pretty straight forward--you bashed a very well respected school, a father of St. X boys explained the reasoning behind sending his kids to a Catholic high school, you separated Trinity from St. X, I am explaining why a family would choose Trinity. I firmly believe that public schools are great in many cases, but will not stand idly by and let some uninformed, misguided, bitter man regurgitate anecdotal stories as fact and not call you out. Did YOU not read the earlier post stating that all financial aid applicaitons are sent to a third party out of state? I'm fairly certain that there is no box to check or line to fill in a 40 time or vertical jump hight in the applications. As an FYI--I'm not a Trinity grad, nor do I have any skin in the game one way or the other. I just disapprove of such negativity...especially since you claim God, academics, and character are important to you. Hypocrite comes to mind, and sounds very appropriate.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

You talk of extras, but I can personally tell you that so called extras occur in the public school system. I remember getting good grades in a class where all I was asked to do was be the one who pushed the button on the projector or load movie reels, never did one of the 3 "required" reports. Also remember the assistant principal telling us "you're lucky we have a game Friday" then being sent home for the rest of the day with no record of suspension. Actually looking back on it I gotta laugh to myself "memeories" lol. But this is a fact that happens all over the country on many different levels. I'm not saying its right, I just dont see what your beef is with private institutions. Good athletes gravitate towards good programs, you dont have to go looking for them when they are coming inquiring about you. I've said it before "BUILD IT, AND THEY WILL COME". Like with anything, you cant please everyone, so of course there will be some who are dissatisfied, but ask those who have been there or are there now and I promise that the majority will have great things to say.

[cmccoy 4]

Mike Calhoun did not start this thread. I did. I have no dog in this fight but wanted to move the posts out of the Thanks Ranger Thread to make their own. Have fun.

[handcontrol 18]

Here is my only concern with this and it is totally on the academic side of things.

I did a little research and found that Trinity being a private school does not have to take the state standardized test. This means that their students are not required to take a standardized test (CATS/K-prep) which measures academic performance and growth compared to other students in the state and country. So there is no way to tell if those students are performing well or not, as for your college comment most of the students who attend the Trinities/X's come from wealthier families who regard education as a means to a better life and expect their kids to attend college (hence the reason they pay so much for highschool notice I said highschool not better school!!!). I also did a little research into scores on the ACT which is one of the tests to get into college. Of the 126 or so Private schools in the state of KY (not couniting charter schools) only 34 students have scored a 34-36 on the ACT test in the last 5 years. Of the public schools in the state 234 students have scored in the top 1% (34-36) in the last five years. So if your argument is founded on Level of eduacation then think again!!!!

[Mike Calhoun 49]

Here is my only concern with this and it is totally on the academic side of things.

Of the 126 or so Private schools in the state of KY (not couniting charter schools) only 34 students have scored a 34-36 on the ACT test in the last 5 years. Of the public schools in the state 234 students have scored in the top 1% (34-36) in the last five years. So if your argument is founded on Level of eduacation then think again!!!!

This a very poor comparison, you list the number of private schools in the entire state. But this is a much smaller number than the number of public schools, also the average number of students at private institutions is way below the average number of students at public institutions. Total number of public high students in the state is 220,920. Total number of private high school students 14,611. That means .001% of pulic students vs .0023% of private school students had those type ACT scores, more thane twice as many percentage wise did better at private than at public. Sheesh, apples and oranges.

as for your college comment most of the students who attend the Trinities/X's come from wealthier families who regard education as a means to a better life and expect their kids to attend college (hence the reason they pay so much for highschool notice I said highschool not better school!!!).

Believe me I am far from wealthy, but I do regard education as a way to better one's self and yes I do expect my kids to go to college. Everyone should. From every class. Why wouldnt you?

[trentX2 0]

Everyone is bashing trinity when they should be bashing the khsaa. They do nothing!! Schools are reported all the time for recruiting violations and nothing is done. Well if its one of the big dogs nothing is done. They like to make their examples out of the smaller schools. How outstanding does trinity look right now as a sports school in the nation?? It is ridiculous how good they are and because they are good at everything the state of KY and the KHSAA are in the spotlight as well. They would be stupid to go after them and they know it. Trinity in the championship game is huge money for khsaa. Khsaa keeps all profits from the class championship games themselves. A few years ago when X and trinity were on opposite sides of the football tournament the khsaa was raking in the dough when they met in the championship game. This is the one of largest high school games in the nation. I can't believe they put them in the same district. They took money out of their own pockets.

Some people say trinity is the best team money can buy.... it seems to me other people (khsaa) are getting paid as well. Are they being paid directly by trinity? NO but indirectly because of the success they are allow them to have by not enforcing rules. maybe someone needs to do an investigative report on what the khsaa members get paid and where all that money goes to!

It's useless to complain really. People are going to get by with what they are allowed to. once again... trinity is not the bad guy necessarily. They just have really bad parents (Khsaa)

[grappler-of-old 44]

MC;

I think you missed handcontrols point. His point was that not all the best students go to private schools, and that public schools produce just as many if not more highly successful students.

As for the comment about why would parents not want or expect their children to go to college? I would guess that you have not experienced poverty schools. In many of those schools the parents expect their children to get out of school as soon as possible and get a job doing whatever they can. I personally experienced this with my in-laws. While dating my future wife they could not understand why I was wasting my time going to college when I could be working making money instead of wasting money on college.

I also counter your number of students comparison with this.

private schools numbers are skewed because they don't have to take everyone, even those student that don't want to be in school and plan to drop out as soon as they can. Therefore public schools scores will always be lower.

[pistlpete 0]

I'm so happy that this thread has us all thinking about this problem. By my count there have been 1461 views. Obviously, some of us are interested. For all you coaches out there that want things to change, please consider my suggestion that requires any transfer to a private school to attend school in that private school's system for one year before that student can participate in athletics. That one simple, easily enforcable rule would greatly improve the ethics problem that exists. If we all don't start writing letters, making phone calls and talking to political officials the situation will never change. I for one will not sit by any longer. I am writing a letter tomorrow to the KHSAA and detailing all the rules violations that I witnessed with my kids. I urge all of you to do the same. After contacting the KHSAA, be sure to follow up with them. I think that Trent is correct. The KHSAA seems to be sitting on their hands except to hold them out for money. It's time for a change in leadership. Can anybody tell me how the KHSAA directors get their jobs?

[Mike Calhoun 49]

GOO, I think you missed my point, In previous statements I even named some of the better schools academically in my area (unfortunately a couple are without wrestling), and I even stated that when I was in school a line was drawn, so there are plenty of people who are sucessful who came from that side of the line. Dont get me wrong, when I say a line was drawn there were pros and cons, the biggest pro being that those students who had the drive, sense and know how, were allowed to recieve a decent education by not being distracted by the rest. But skewed or not it is easy to have an example of a larger quanity when comparing 200,000 to 14,000. Thats like saying Johnny hit 10 free throws and Bob only hit 5, so Johnny must be better than Bob, without saying Johnny took 20 shots and Bob was 5 for 5. Saying that private schools only had 34 and public schools had 200 more without the rest of the facts is a poor representation of the truth. As far as the college statement I said everyone "should", I guess since you did yourself you might agree. And the why wouldnt you to me is still valid because I've seen plenty of people work and take classes, I remember thinking everybody ate crackers and government peanut butter (remember the wite can with black letters and a pic of a peanut, that just said peanut butter) and cheese for dinner, while my father struggled to work to pay his way thru college. GOO I dont know your in-laws and mean no disrespect when I say that they were wrong, and I'm sure you proved that to them. I dont feel I have once bashed any public school in any of my posts, only stated facts to retort comments left by others, that you can find for yourself. So why is it wrong for me to defend private institutions that people are on here bashing? We all have our own opinions, but thats all an opinion is and ever will be is an opinion, until the day it becomes a fact, then it is no longer an opinion. I have stated both, facts and opinions, facts are facts, and we are all entitled to our own opinions. Some better kept to ourselves, I'm guilty of that one. I think I've said enough on this subject, to each his own (or her), and do what you feel is right for your child (every situation is different), lets keep sports fun (and this forum, along with informative) and good luck to all of those athletes who give us lame'o parents something to talk about, lol. Thanks.

[grappler-of-old 44]

MC; I agree 100% that everyone has the right to choose where they send their kids. If you want your kids to have a religious education then private schools are the only way to do. I have no problem if people choose this road for thier rug-rats.

I however don't think a parent should choose where to send their kid because of athletics. This does not only apply to private schools. We have 2 public schools in NKY that draw kids to their school for Athletics. One in Campbell Co. and one in Kenton Co. Both draw much of the football talent to their school. I went to school with 2 kids that attended the county school until high school and because they were better than average football players found a way to attend the local powerhouse independent city school.

I'm not sure there ever will be an answer to the debate, almost every state has this problem. Some have went to public and private state tourneys. I sure hope this does not happen in KY.

As always.

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less.

Take them or leave them does not really matter in the scope of the universe.

Live long and prosper.

GOO out.

[CoachK 2]

But the problem in using percents is that there is a large number of public school students who don't even take the ACT test becauses they aren't going to college, they are going to a trade school that doesn't require it, going to work in the coal mine or local factory or the family farm. And then there are the number of kids who don't graduate and don't ever plan on it so they don't take the test. And this is considering the amount of money that someone else is paying to get an athlete to the school not just the kids who are going to public school and paying nothing for it. And the percentage of kids going to college is of course higher for these reasons. I would never pay for my kids to go to high school just because of the school...I am not Catholic so that wouldn't convince me to send them there for that reason.

Like Trent said it starts at the top...way too much money being made off of them and so they don't want it to stop.

This a very poor comparison, you list the number of private schools in the entire state. But this is a much smaller number than the number of public schools, also the average number of students at private institutions is way below the average number of students at public institutions. Total number of public high students in the state is 220,920. Total number of private high school students 14,611. That means .001% of pulic students vs .0023% of private school students had those type ACT scores, more thane twice as many percentage wise did better at private than at public. Sheesh, apples and oranges.

Believe me I am far from wealthy, but I do regard education as a way to better one's self and yes I do expect my kids to go to college. Everyone should. From every class. Why wouldnt you?

[Mike Calhoun 49]

MC; I agree 100% that everyone has the right to choose where they send their kids. If you want your kids to have a religious education then private schools are the only way to do. I have no problem if people choose this road for thier rug-rats.

I however don't think a parent should choose where to send their kid because of athletics. This does not only apply to private schools. We have 2 public schools in NKY that draw kids to their school for Athletics. One in Campbell Co. and one in Kenton Co. Both draw much of the football talent to their school. I went to school with 2 kids that attended the county school until high school and because they were better than average football players found a way to attend the local powerhouse independent city school.

I'm not sure there ever will be an answer to the debate, almost every state has this problem. Some have went to public and private state tourneys. I sure hope this does not happen in KY.

As always.

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more nothing less.

Take them or leave them does not really matter in the scope of the universe.

Live long and prosper.

GOO out.

It happens all the time in b-ball, if Rondo stayed at Eastern and didnt go to Oak Hill, then does he get the recognition to go to UK having not played against top high school programs at Eastern. If he doesnt go to UK, then is he drafted as high in the NBA draft. Lifes not fair sometimes, but I cant knock someone who believes their child has a talent and makes an effort to support that talent by sending them to a school more geared towards it. No one would say anything if your child played the violin or was an actor, so you decide to send them to the YPAS program at Manual. Or if your childs home school is Butler and you want them somewhere else because Butler has no wrestling program. If my child was an excellent swimmer, no doubt I would send him to X, they have the best swim team in the state. Only you know your situation, saying that my child has to stay at a crappy program which in no way can help to further his abilites because its his home school is nonsense, do whats best in your mind for you and yours.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

It would suck to be a great quarterback and "HAVE TO" go to a school with a bunch of crappy recievers.

[pistlpete 0]

Again guys, don't let the lnfamous green and white damage control machine turn the tide. The question we are asking here is not where to send our kids to play sports, but why does Trinity have these unethically acquired athletes. Lets also be realistic here. Sending my kid or your kid to a school simply because he or she seems to have better than average athletic ability is simply a parent trying to live through his kids. Does anybody here know the number of Rondo's there actually are in Kentucky? I wouldn't want to gamble my kids education on the athletic history of a school. This portion of this thread was originally started to discuss the transfer of two North Oldham High School wrestlers to Trinity. Never in a million years would I trade the education one could receive at NOHS for one at Trinity. Sorry, but facts are facts. The academic scholarship dollars that are received at NOHS speaks for itself. Therefore, I have to assume that a parent that would trade the two is being misled (which is usually the case) or wanting to live through his child at the expense of that child. I love high school athletics, but be realistic. What per cent of kids actually play professional sports? Athletics builds character and rewards hard work. However, it is supposed to be a secondary focus. Bottom line, if you send your kid to Trinity to play football, wrestle, play the newest addition to the unethical merry-go-round basketball or whatever the next addition will be to their already preverse methods, then your priorities are warped. Don't let Trinity feed you the line about how great your kid could be to find out that he will be replaced by the next recruit. Trust me parents. it happens many times each year. I know many kids that fit that very description. If your child is really that special, he or she will excel where they are. They don't need to wear green and white to make their mark. It's just possible that the green and white will be playing under the black cloud of sanctions in the near future anyway.

[stalling 7]

Pistlepete, you are way off base. You stated that sending your kid to a school because they seem to have a better than average athletic skill is "living through your kids". Aren't we all living through our kids? When your kid does something good you're proud right? Proud of what? Your kid and what they accomplished. We all push our kids to be the best and be better than we were. At least some of us do. Does that mean we live through them? In some degree yes. And if someones kid is athleticaly gifted, why not put them in the best position possible? Crazy if you don't. And don't get me started about academics. You really can't have any idea until you witness it first hand. Private far beats out public. I see it happen every day. And about being replaced by the next recruit, that's real wotld. Work hard or be replaced. Start slacking at your job and let me know how that works out for you.

[pistlpete 0]

No Stalling, we are not all living through our kids. I will help them all that I can or is reasonably necessary without sacraficing my ethics. Even if that were the case, a parent could succeed at living through their kids without selling his/her soul. As far as the comparison of academics, I will stack NOHS, Manual, Male or a handful of others against Trinity's academics any day. Trinity would lose and embarrasingly so. Let me allow you in on a little secret stalling. I have witnessed it, first hand. I didn't let myself become endoctrinated. Like I said before, it's easy to make it look good when you have six different levels of academics and no state agency looking over your shoulder. One has to ask, if Trinity will practice their brand of unethical behavior in athletics, what would they do in academics? Don't drink the Kool aid guys.

[Mike Calhoun 49]

I think Tim Tebow may be the only one who agrees with the part of your argument that deals with being replaced by a better athlete. I heard him say "Who cares if Peyton Manning is a better quarterback, I was at Denver first." Looking at all your posts in this thread you really seem to have a personal beef with Trinity only because your child lost his spot to someone who even you said was better. So you go looking for other unfounded arguments as a way to bash that school.

[stalling 7]

Zoloft. Try it. MC hit the nail squarely on the head.

[PD 2]

This thread is beyond stupid. You can make many arguments as to where someone can get a quality education both public and private. You can do well at either and it is not going to be resolved because of what someone posts on this site. You can throw out whatever statistics you want. Most people have already made up there mind and chose accordingly. Sometimes its financial, sometimes education, and sometimes (gasp, gasp) it’s sports related. These 2 kids from what I understand are 8th graders and therefore not TRANSFERS. They have finished Middle School and are now enrolling in High School. It is the choice of them and their parents where they want to go. Pistolpete this has obviously had a negative effect on your personal situation but don't try to throw out this crap about how these families have somehow been duped and tricked into laying out $50,000 (or whatever the amount is, just going on numbers from some of the OH schools) for their kids education and how you know better. Why don't you call them up and explain all your reasons why you think they are wrong and you are right if you are really so concerned. You think the school you are sending your kids to is better than the one they chose? Great, then send your kid there. No one is trying to convince you otherwise. They obviously saw it different. I am sure they can figure things out for themselves. So go ahead and write your letters to the KHSAA and whine about recruiting violations and how unfair life is and how the KHSAA won't do anything because of how much money they stand to lose (which is nonsense) but I don't see any thing wrong with it.

[grappler-of-old 44]

To equal out the allegations of recruiting. Maybe KHSAA should allow a kid who participated in a private school to transfer to the required public school without sitting out one year. But not the other way around.

This way those parents that were "duped" could send their kid to the public school they live in without any repercussions.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Stalling.

I'm not sure how you came up with Private far beats out Public for academics.

I would bet my last dollar that kids that attend public school advance their education farther than those who attend Private.

By this I mean look at their ability before they start the year and then look at their ability after they start the year.

Private schools cannot offer the same courses that most public do. Most do not have 100% certified teachers at their school, and (I'm sorry) but they waste at least 1 academic hour a day on religion.

Most private schools already get the cream of the crop and advance them a little. Public take the bottom dwellers and succeed with many of them. A private school cannot accommodate kids with learning disabilities or those who need motivation. (There are a few but not many private schools with special education teachers.)

[stalling 7]

Actually, that's a good idea. And that's how it works in Ohio. If you transfer to a private school after your freshman year, you must redshirt. But, you can transfer back to public without the redshirt if you choose. Sometimes money runs or a kid can't make the grades and that happens. We checked into it because my son will be attending Catholic school his freshman year and we wanted to be sure of the rule if it doesn't work out.

[stalling 7]

Grappler, I just saw your previous post. Where I get my info from is test scores. Period. I have several freinds that are public school teachers, and a couple that are private Catholic school teachers. Several boys I know very well attend both. But Ill only speak of my own son. He is in 8th grade, straight "a" student (all high 90%) across the board. He took the entrance exam for Catholic school and only scored in the 50 to 60% range. Staright A's and accelerated classes in public school, now going to summer school to catch up a little. Catholic school also offers several classes you can't get in public. For example, all of his 8th grade freinds in Catholic already speak Spanish or Latin or French because they've been taking it for 3 yrs already. In his public you can't get it till high school. I would venture a guess that private schools send a much higher percentage of their students to college. My son is a State Champion wrestler, and a beast on the football field. We chose private based strictly on a year of talking with parents from both and stats on education. Period. Its all about choices. And you really need to be informed to make good choices. My son will have two Nationally ranked wrestlers in front of him and will probably ride jv till his jr yr. And that's ok. He's there for an education, because wrestling isn't going to pay the bills in the end. And after having two great training partners, he'll do great his jr and sr yr. Not to mention playing on one of the top football programs in the State.

[grappler-of-old 44]

You kind of made my point. Your son had to pass an exam to attend. They only take the easiest to teach. Those that are motivated and have drive. I would guess that your son would do no worse at a public school. (With that said just like private schools, all public schools are not the same).

However: If you son struggled with school the private school would not be able to help him. I have seen this over and over again. Private schools only want the "Haves not the Have nots".