Haves and Have Nots

[NOHS_wrestling 1]

And my hope is we can add more of these smaller schools.  1A, 2A, 3A schools could really benefit from a wrestling program.  If we sell it from the angle that you don't have to be a massive school to compete, we can build these smaller schools. 

This is something I think the KWCA can do, and I mean actually do if the coaches are willing to look outside their own programs and help build more programs by selling it to the administrations of these schools.  I know that I, and a group of other coaches have aggressively pushed this in other school districts and will continue to do so.  If we can get more coaches to take up this banner and at least go to neighboring schools, or even schools in their district and encourage this growth, 100 teams is not unresonable and could be achieved in a few years.

the 5A and 6A schools will make their own decisions without outside influence IMHO... look at Male and Highlands, or Lexington Catholic.  Instead of worrying what kind of team Male 'could' put togather, let's instead keep promoting wrestling at these smaller schools, especially in the Western KY region.  Jefferson Co, Hardin, Oldham, and Northern KY have the bulk of the programs.  Let's spread the wealth, and as coaches let's do what we can to encourage this growth.

I know the 4 proposals I have put forth to the KHSAA won't be considered, they never seem to be at least.  However, I do truly hope they  look at these measures and start asking some questions:

- how do we grow the sport among the smaller schools

- how do we grow the sport in western ky

- how do we grow more officials

- what role can the KWCA play in this

- how do we continue to grow the sport statewide

The KHSAA does not care how we compete or 'stack up' nationally, so let's get off that idea and focus on building more programs.  It's a simple idea= more programs = more participants = more future coaches = better wrestling in KY in the long run.

This is what we've been doing for a few years, I just think let's keep the ball moving forward with some real speed and effort.  Your generations state tournament had what, 30-40 teams total in the state?  Now we're double it.  Let's triple it.

By the time we have some serious numbers 100, 120, 130 programs, then we realistically look at splitting the pool.

Or maybe the KHSAA will take my proposal, but I doubt it.

[oldwrestler81 6]

once again I feel didivding our state into 40  (or 30)  team divisions will definately hurt the overall level of competition in our state as well as diminish what the term state champion means in this state

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

I have another point to mention. If there were 2 divisions, there would be 4 state finalist eligible for senior nationals. We would double our input at the national level. And for those who say it strips the meaning of state champ, that is why they go to nationals and prove theirselves.

[oldgrappler 9]

I have another point to mention. If there were 2 divisions, there would be 4 state finalist eligible for senior nationals. We would double our input at the national level. And for those who say it strips the meaning of state champ, that is why they go to nationals and prove theirselves.

Or maybe we can have 40 divisions and take everyone............like YMCA soccer - nobody loses. :roll:

[Ranger123 43]

Or maybe we can have 40 divisions and take everyone............like YMCA soccer - nobody loses. :roll:

But that doesn't take into account the jv kids that just weren't good enough to crack the lineup.  What are you going to do for those kids?  HUH?  Or the kids at MYSCHOOLSUCKS High who don't have a wrestling team.  Come on, you can think of a better plan to get everyone a medal.

[oldwrestler81 6]

so what we are all saying is the best plan is to keep lowering the bar instead of raising it and it will work out better :-(

[tiltfor3 20]

Look, if you can't get the larger schools like Male, Henderson Cty, Ballard, Butler, Lex Cath, etc with all of their resources, how are you going to sell the smaller schools? These efforts and energies should be concentrated at devolping the youth programs. That is when and where the demand will be created.

I think with Coach's proposal he could be successful but, what's that mean if we have a system off 120 teams like KCD's?

[grappler-of-old 44]

Other teams will rise when communities are interested. 

when the large school in the area is successfully or at least is successfully. The smaller schools surrounding that school get interested in wrestling.

When parents and kids intermingle with each other and one group of parents are constantly talking about wrestling then the parents of the school without wrestling start getting interested. 

Example:  In Campbell Co. Newport started a team.  The interest was founded because the kids and parents of Newport were hanging out with kids from Campbell Co. and probably Holmes.  Both which have teams.  Bishop Brossart started a team because the kids were living next door to kids that go to Campbell Co. and wrestle. 

So yes the youth is the way to go.  Get those kids that don't attend wrestling schools interested in wrestling, then the parents get involved.  If you want a school to start a team the first place to start is with the parents of that school.

[just sayin 0]

As a dad of a son that goes to a class 1A school, I would not like to see a split. We have  8 wrestlers, 3 duplicate weights, so we know going in we will not win any duel or duel tournaments. But even though we wont win the duel, it is very motivating for our kids to win against the kids from bigger schools.

I just think that having a split would leave a void in state victory if you did not have all schools in one tournament.

[8224 17]

I agree with Lowsingle. When you live in a small community, there are slim pickings as far as getting individuals out for wrestling. If small schools could compete against other small schools, it would give the wrestlers more of an incentive to improve on their skill because of a higher chance of success. It would give the wrestlers hope. Ultimately drawing more kids out for our sport.

I'm not completely sure on this but I believe that there are only about 3 states that have a state tournament that isn't divided by classes. Those states to my knowledge are:    California with a total state population of about 38 million

Pennsylvania with a state population of 12 1/2 million

Kentucky with a total state population of around 4 million

(I am just going by what I was told this by a California wrestler at nationals. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

2 out of those 3 states have pretty good success on the national level. The other, unfortunately, not so much.

The population indicates that Kentucky compared to California and Pennsylvania just does not have enough wrestlers to make most teams on a competitive level. I think that is why other states have adopted the method of a class systemand have had "more" success nationally. It brings more attention to the sport. If a small town hears about their local highschool team winning a state championship it sparks interest. The community is likely to get involved and follow. More kids would be interested in the sport. That would ultimately mean more participants in the sport. More participants means a greater chance of national recognition.

Pennsylvania has more than one class for wrestling. Indiana only has one class for 311 schools that have wrestling teams.

[coffeesgood 19]

Wrestlers don't want to be one of three or four state champs- they want to be THE state champ. If you're going to divide everyone up, then I suggest the state meet finish with all the division champions wrestling one another to determine the best. THEN you have a state champion. (In other words, I think the idea of this, for wrestling, is ridiculous- let the young men wrestle.)

[big77 0]

I have listened (read) and the MAIN problem is MONEY, most programs do not bring in enough money for the school to even think about a wrestling program (growth) I mean where has everybody been? most schools have a travel limit set, cutting teachers, Principals, funding in general. So the main problem is that most smaller schools only involve themselves with sports that generate funding, and still they have to have Booster  Funding to survive, I know of schools that make football teams take care of their own fields, (seeding, mowing , ect) so let us be honest, lack of funding, Parents without jobs, let it rest. Be smart , there will be no growth until  the State recovers, until the Country recovers, until wrestling can be self reliant, and by the way you do know that if a team reaches the State tournament in football, they get a piece of the pie , wrestling you pay for it all, all the way, and I hope that everyone who has ALL of the money to provide for the excellent programs, remember that with excellent funding, and facilities, and a athletic base to pick and chose from, it is a whole lot easier to rise to the top, it is not a big surprise that large schools win championships, and have individuals that  are the cream of the crop, again better training partners, better facilities,  better equipment, I know this does not mean instant success, but it sure does help, if money, and a large athletic base to choose from and facilities does not  matter, would you turn it down as a Coach? if offered?  I have no problem with larger schools and people that can afford them, I think they are giving their kids a chance to be successful and that is what all of us should do, but let us be honest and stop with all of the changes and let us try to get through the problems we already have, and bring this to the table when it is feasible, when the schools are even capable of buying the wrestling team uniforms, and pay for the tournaments that they  enter, and maybe a MAT to train on that is NOT from the 80's,  that is what we need to get through, not growth and splitting the classes...........of course this is my opinion strictly

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

Wrestlers don't want to be one of three or four state champs- they want to be THE state champ. If you're going to divide everyone up, then I suggest the state meet finish with all the division champions wrestling one another to determine the best. THEN you have a state champion. (In other words, I think the idea of this, for wrestling, is ridiculous- let the young men wrestle.)

I like the idea of a final meeting. But as for the wrestlers not wanting to be one of 2 state champs (Keep in mind that Kentucky does not have enough for more than 2 divisions), I think your wrong. I believe there are plenty of kids that would love the opportunity to have the title of state champ. In my opinion I think that competition within the smaller schools would increase because the prize of state champion would be more achievable. Same thing with large schools. Besides, you could take the top 8 from the small school state tourny and top 8 from large school and make a 16 man bracket for a final tournament.

[grappler-of-old 44]

This final tourney that has been passed around. 

Will never happen.  A kid who has worked his rear end off to become a state champion, and finally achieves this goal, will not have enough determination to actually go to or wrestle his best at a "Finals tourney".

[oldwrestler81 6]

Yeah so if I'm the best kid in my weight class from o pool of about 30 schools I get to say I'm a state champ.  Wow were back to lets just give a medal to everyone and call them a state champ

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

This final tourney that has been passed around. 

Will never happen.  A kid who has worked his rear end off to become a state champion, and finally achieves this goal, will not have enough determination to actually go to or wrestle his best at a "Finals tourney".

I'm sure they would not care to prove theirselves. Thats like saying, Why would a state champ return the next year to defend his title? Does everyone who works their rear off and achieves their dream give up? I don't think so. They step up to the challenge. Thats what separates the good from the bad. You have to be willing to step up. And if not, I'm sorry to say but your in the wrong sport. I don't want to argue, but I feel that 2 divisions would help our state out. Other states have had success from it. I think it would do the same for us.

[grappler-of-old 44]

way back when.  I believe it was Fern Creek, had a tourney the week after state.  They had hoped that state placers and champs would attend and challenge themselves again.  Never happened. 

Maybe you are correct, kids would show up. But it would be like those kids who lost in the semi's.  Their dream can not be reached.  They wrestle hard but their hart is not in it. 

I think kids would go to this tourney saying. "I'm gonna see if I can beat this guy.  If I do great, but it really doesn't matter I'm already this years state champion."  They would treat it like a summer tourney.

I don't think 2 divisions would help our state. Other states have success from one division so can we.

[dagger 7]

Indiana did the same thing in basketball. They went from a single state champ to a four class system and had the same idea you did, they would get all the state champs together and play for a single title. They did this for a few years then found out that there was no interest in it. Now they just have four state champs and i bet if they had to do it over again they would leave it like it was.

We already have a small school state champ why would you need to change so kids can say they won a state title. If you are worried about a wrestler from a small school winning a state title then i guess they should give out a small school individual title to the wrestler that placed the highest at state.

[oldgrappler 9]

Somebody tell me why they think a kid from a small school needs to wrestle against only "small school wrestlers" for a state championship.  The last time I checked, there was a requirement that they all weigh the same.  And don't give me the excuse that small teams make it impossible to train and compete against the bigger schools.  Sure, it is more difficult - but good wrestlers enjoy the challenge.  The only reason I can think of is to make it easier for some of the small schools.  Wrestling isn't supposed to be easy. We need to increase the level of competition instead of watering it down.  And this is coming from a very small school.

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

I just think a division split would give small schools for of an incentive to compete. I predict that the competition level would rise within small schools. More competition creates better wrestlers. Just my thoughts..

[dagger 7]

I just think a division split would give small schools for of an incentive to compete. I predict that the competition level would rise within small schools. More competition creates better wrestlers. Just my thoughts..

If that is the case then why isn't NBA Basketball better. They have started several new teams but the NBA has gotten worse. The same teams win year after year and the league is watered down. I guess they should have a big city and a small city NBA champions so the league will grow. At least that is what you are saying. If you have a small school state championship the same schools will win year after year and you are left with the same argument you have now, so do you split again to give the small small small schools a chance. Work your butt off and get better that is how you win.

[119Rider 61]

I don't think you can really compare the NBA to small school wrestling. Last time I checked NBA'ers went where the money and glory was, not to the smallest fish in the market.

[eville dad 17]

I hope there is no real effort to establish divisions. Theres just not enough kids. State is watered down enough already by allowing 4 kids from 8 divisions, approx 1/2 of all wrestlers qualify now. Divisions would further diminish the achievement of qualifying and placing at state. Give em all a trophy if you must, but dont divide into divisions.

[dagger 7]

I don't think you can really compare the NBA to small school wrestling. Last time I checked NBA'ers went where the money and glory was, not to the smallest fish in the market.

You missed my point. The NBA thought that it would be better if they added more teams and it back fired. The only thing that happened was the league as a whole has gotten a lot weaker and it isn't Worth watching anymore.  That is what will happen to wrestling if you go to a two class system, wrestling will go backwards.

[coffeesgood 19]

The small school guys already have "incentive" ...to win state. I hate to ruin this but I believe Union County would be a "small school." So your scenario is already shot. I remember my college days on full ride athletic scholarship- winning something small  was not nearly as satisfying as placing at something BIG. If we're teaching these kids that the only important thing is the hardware on their necks, it's the wrong message. And we as coaches and parents need to be better than that.