Haves and Have Nots

[grappler-of-old 44]

Lowsingle what exactly are you trying to say?

As I have mentioned.  Small schools can and do compete.  Maybe not the team but the individuals do.

If you want the small teams to have a competiteve chance "team wise" then do what basketball does.  Have an all small classic sort of like the all "A" cassic.

I really don't think schools are dropping or not starting programs because the team can't compete.  If this was true there would be no more new teams in 6A football because they can't compete with X and Trinity.

[Lowsingle 9]

Lowsingle what exactly are you trying to say?

As I have mentioned.  Small schools can and do compete.  Maybe not the team but the individuals do.

If you want the small teams to have a competiteve chance "team wise" then do what basketball does.  Have an all small classic sort of like the all "A" cassic.

I really don't think schools are dropping or not starting programs because the team can't compete.  If this was true there would be no more new teams in 6A football because they can't compete with X and Trinity.

Some small school individuals can compete such as larue, wayne, sheldon clark, union, and north oldham. But out of the 112 state placers this year the numbers look like this.

6A- 55 placers

5A- 25 placers

4A- 10 placers

3A- 18 placers

2A- 2 placers

1A- 2 placers

Including Larue with the small schools it turns out that,

Large Schools had 85 placers

Small Schools had 27 placers

Also out of the 28 elite state finalist,

Large Schools had 21 finalest

Small Schools had 7 finalst

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

I agree with Lowsingle. When you live in a small community, there are slim pickings as far as getting individuals out for wrestling. If small schools could compete against other small schools, it would give the wrestlers more of an incentive to improve on their skill because of a higher chance of success. It would give the wrestlers hope. Ultimately drawing more kids out for our sport.

I'm not completely sure on this but I believe that there are only about 3 states that have a state tournament that isn't divided by classes. Those states to my knowledge are:    California with a total state population of about 38 million

Pennsylvania with a state population of 12 1/2 million

Kentucky with a total state population of around 4 million

(I am just going by what I was told this by a California wrestler at nationals. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

2 out of those 3 states have pretty good success on the national level. The other, unfortunately, not so much.

The population indicates that Kentucky compared to California and Pennsylvania just does not have enough wrestlers to make most teams on a competitive level. I think that is why other states have adopted the method of a class systemand have had "more" success nationally. It brings more attention to the sport. If a small town hears about their local highschool team winning a state championship it sparks interest. The community is likely to get involved and follow. More kids would be interested in the sport. That would ultimately mean more participants in the sport. More participants means a greater chance of national recognition.

[grappler-of-old 44]

That sounds about right to me then.  considering that the large schools have the majority of the wrestlers competing then they would also have the majority of the wrestlers placing.

Example.

If there are 32 wrestlers in a bracket.

24 are from large schools

8 are from small schools

If everything is equal then 6 of the placers should be large school and 2 placers should be small school 3 to 1 odds.

The object is to get improve wrestling.  Not water it down.  More does not always mean better.  Even though I want wrestling to grow in KY.  I don't want it watered down in the process.  If I were Larue or Wayne then I would not want to be in the small school division, especially if they have been competing with the large schools already. It only hurts their program because they don't compete against the best of the best.

Lets look at getting more ex-wrestlers involved in the sport.  After graduation many leave the sport only to return when they have kids wrestling.  We need to get them on the mat coaching high school, middle school, or elementary school wrestling.  Or more importantly putting on the stripes and officiating.  Ex-wrestlers returning to the mat to help out the team also helps. 

You can also get these alumni out to start new programs at other schools.

[Lowsingle 9]

I'm not sure about this but I believe football programs are allowed to play up a class or two on a two year basis. If they are a 3A school they can play up in 4A or 5A for two seasons after which they are given a chance to either stay or go back down. This could be down with wrestling as well let the more competitive small schools wrestle up for two years then give them a chance to either stay or come back down. I'm really not trying to start any arguments on here or get anyone upset I'm just suggesting a way to help grow the sport of wrestling in this state. I believe that a small schools state duals or even an All "A" wrestling classic would be a great way to get something like this going and it also gives the smaller schools something to look forward to as a team.

[R.Rickman171 0]

Not to sound ignorant, but what classifies a

[oldgrappler 9]

Coming from the smallest wrestling school in the state (300 kids k-12), I can tell you that we don't have a problem with the system as it is.  Sure, we aren't able to compete in a dual tournament since we don't field a full 14 man roster, but our wrestlers want to compete against the best individually.  If we went to a small school division our better wrestlers wouldn't have the opportunity to wrestle for the "true" state championship individually.  The small school division would always have an asterisk beside it. 

On the other hand, if there was a tournament like basketball's "All - A Classic" during the season, I'm sure we would participate.  The problem is, there aren't many "A" schools who have wrestling.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Coming from the smallest wrestling school in the state (300 kids k-12), I can tell you that we don't have a problem with the system as it is.  Sure, we aren't able to compete in a dual tournament since we don't field a full 14 man roster, but our wrestlers want to compete against the best individually.  If we went to a small school division our better wrestlers wouldn't have the opportunity to wrestle for the "true" state championship individually.  The small school division would always have an asterisk beside it. 

On the other hand, if there was a tournament like basketball's "All - A Classic" during the season, I'm sure we would participate.  The problem is, there aren't many "A" schools who have wrestling.

this is how i thought the small school individuals would feel.

As for the "Small School Classic" It would need to include all the small schools however they are determined.  (They determined the small schools one year by just splitting the schools in half by population.) I don't know what the criteria is now.

I don't know how you would decide who attends this tourney.  How do they determine the participants in the "All-A classic" for basketball?

[Mathound 4]

I'm pretty much in the middle, I like letting the guys that want to wrestle against the big schools for a championship do that. However, I see why the small guys would want to wrestle in a smaller division, you have less depth in the room to train and get better. How can a team with 10 wrestlers compete with someone with 80 and 2,000 male bodies in the school? Larue, Union, Sheldon Clark, and Wayne County are out of the ordinary small schools. Of course they can compete, they have an established program with very strong tradition AND youth programs for years. What about the small schools without strong community support and tradition? Where do they stand? Ask a AA football team how they feel about winning a state football championship. I guarantee you NO ONE is saying... oh but X or Trinity would kill you... how does that make you feel? To that community, trust me, it still means a lot.

And although there is all that argument about depth, I'm still torn about the argument about how it will help increase wrestling programs. Does anyone know of a school AD that is saying they won't start a program because they can't compete? I don't really see any proof or data that says it in fact will increase growth.

Look at West Virginia... they have 86 teams. 40 AAA and 46 A/AA. They split in 1977 and Kentucky has pretty much the same number of teams as them following in the low 80's. Now, if you told me WV had over 120 teams, and that the number increased by a large amount after the split, sure, then I have data telling me that classification does in fact promote growth, however, I just don't see any numbers backing up this argument.

This should obviously be a subject that is thought through very carefully... especially since once you split, there will be no going back.

[oldgrappler 9]

Wrestling is different than football.  I agree the divisions in football are necessary for obvious reasons.  However, I maintain that an individual on a 10 man team can compete with an individual on an 80 man team in wrestling.  Sure, it is more difficult and the lack of training partners is a disadvantage, but such is life.  Myself, I enjoy being the underdog.

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

I'm pretty much in the middle, I like letting the guys that want to wrestle against the big schools for a championship do that. However, I see why the small guys would want to wrestle in a smaller division, you have less depth in the room to train and get better. How can a team with 10 wrestlers compete with someone with 80 and 2,000 male bodies in the school? Larue, Union, Sheldon Clark, and Wayne County are out of the ordinary small schools. Of course they can compete, they have an established program with very strong tradition AND youth programs for years. What about the small schools without strong community support and tradition? Where do they stand? Ask a AA football team how they feel about winning a state football championship. I guarantee you NO ONE is saying... oh but X or Trinity would kill you... how does that make you feel? To that community, trust me, it still means a lot.

And although there is all that argument about depth, I'm still torn about the argument about how it will help increase wrestling programs. Does anyone know of a school AD that is saying they won't start a program because they can't compete? I don't really see any proof or data that says it in fact will increase growth.

Look at West Virginia... they have 86 teams. 40 AAA and 46 A/AA. They split in 1977 and Kentucky has pretty much the same number of teams as them following in the low 80's. Now, if you told me WV had over 120 teams, and that the number increased by a large amount after the split, sure, then I have data telling me that classification does in fact promote growth, however, I just don't see any numbers backing up this argument.

This should obviously be a subject that is thought through very carefully... especially since once you split, there will be no going back.

Ok, so West Virginia has roughly the same amount of wrestling teams as Kentucky. Now look at this statistic. Total population of Kentucky 4.2 million. Total Population of West Virginia 1.8 million. So a state with not even half of the population of ours is putting out around the same amount of participants. I wonder why?

[Ranger123 43]

Wrestling is different than football.  I agree the divisions in football are necessary for obvious reasons.  However, I maintain that an individual on a 10 man team can compete with an individual on an 80 man team in wrestling.  Sure, it is more difficult and the lack of training partners is a disadvantage, but such is life.  Myself, I enjoy being the underdog.

I'm with you.  Football is so different.  If there were no class system they would have 6 months of playoffs given the number of participating teams.

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

I'm with you.  Football is so different.  If there were no class system they would have 6 months of playoffs given the number of participating teams.

Would there be as many teams if there were no class system?

[Ranger123 43]

Ok, so West Virginia has roughly the same amount of wrestling teams as Kentucky. Now look at this statistic. Total population of Kentucky 4.2 million. Total Population of West Virginia 1.8 million. So a state with not even half of the population of ours is putting out around the same amount of participants. I wonder why?

Good point, but what Mathound is saying is that WV has not seen growth since going to a class system.  So that isn't necessarily the answer.  I personally think we are well on our way.  Look at the participation at youth state this year.  Given all of the talk about how the association went the wrong direction with holding the state tournament on Sunday after HS state (with some very valid points), the turnout was still amazing.  And I would guess that middle school participation is growing as well.  What we really need most, and has already been mentioned a thousand times by others (so I won't take any credit), is support from alumni.  We need more/better officials around the state and we need more coaches to help support these new and growing youth teams.  It may not be glamorous, but it is extremely important to the growth in KY to give these little guys the help they need and to help our programs run well so parents and kids have a good experience.

[Ranger123 43]

Would there be as many teams if there were no class system?

I believe the number would be about the same.  Case in point.  Bishop Brossart recently (last few years) started both a football and wrestling team.  Did they do because they thought they would immediately compete for a state title (or ever)?  No way.  Even in class A, they will likely never challenge.  They did it because they knew it was a draw for students.  That is the case for almost every extracurricular activity.  They don't usually make money as an activity (with a few exceptions, eg, football, basketball), but they draw in and keep students in the school.

[Unicorn Warrior 0]

Good point, but what Mathound is saying is that WV has not seen growth since going to a class system.  So that isn't necessarily the answer.  I personally think we are well on our way.  Look at the participation at youth state this year.  Given all of the talk about how the association went the wrong direction with holding the state tournament on Sunday after HS state (with some very valid points), the turnout was still amazing.  And I would guess that middle school participation is growing as well.  What we really need most, and has already been mentioned a thousand times by others (so I won't take any credit), is support from alumni.  We need more/better officials around the state and we need more coaches to help support these new and growing youth teams.  It may not be glamorous, but it is extremely important to the growth in KY to give these little guys the help they need and to help our programs run well so parents and kids have a good experience.

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

[oldwrestler81 6]

It's suposed to be hard to earn an individual state title.  However it is already alot easier to eanr one in Kentucky then in many other states.  Quite frankly "kentucky State Champ' does not carry the same weight with college coaches as "Ohoi State Champ" or "Pennsylvanial State Champ"  If you put all other criterial aside, college coaches know you only have to be the best of about 80 kids to win in Kentucky. Each division in Ohio has about 180 teams and they have 3 divisions for wrestling.  I think if we split this already small pool further we are devaluing our individual champs.

[Mathound 4]

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

Yeah, I'm not sure how many teams they had before the split, so I can't put a number on how many teams they have added. Like I said, I'm in the middle. Both arguments seem to level out for me.

[Ranger123 43]

He said that West Virginia split in 1977. I'm sure that the teams have grown pretty fairly since then. On the other hand, it would probably be hard to figure out how many teams they had in 77.

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

[NOHS_wrestling 1]

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

We'll see what the KHSAA has to say.  I've submitted a proposal to split intoo two divisions.  My AD backed it, and so did the surrounding AD's.  We'll see.

[grappler-of-old 44]

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

[tiltfor3 20]

I have no idea.  Any WV experts out there have any history lessons for us?  I assume they see some benefit to it or they would have gone back to no class system in the last 30 years.  I am generally not a fan of the "build it and they will come" approach.  Two classes of 40 teams seems like a joke to me and would further diminish our standing outside the state.  For those who are not aware, when we seed our kids in OH, our state placers are considered on the same level as their district placers (tournaments using Baumspage).  For example, Harrison Courtney as a senior 3-time state champ, gets seeded behind a kid who placed 8th in OH.  That is the value they place on our post season.  Split that and it is even lower.

Courtney did win it, right?

[NOHS_wrestling 1]

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

As a coach and fan of this sport, I hope they don't, or if they do they at least use it as a talking point for some the growth of our sport over the next couple of years.

Ultimately, I am tired of armchair debate between coaches at state and then doing nothing about it.  This is not the only proposal I have submitted.  I have also submitted proposals for:

- Changing the food policies/ vending at the state tournament

- an option to go back to a 16 man bracket at state

- 2 differant redistricting plans

I got fed up this year when we had our coaches meeting and NOTHING that we had spoke of over the last year was changed.  Not to mention the KWCA still was not a viable entity for change in the state.

So I figured why COMPLAIN when I could do something about it.

[NOHS_wrestling 1]

As an ex-coach of a small school.  I hope they shoot it down. 

Would North Oldham be considered a small school?

Under my proposal it would be up to the state and member school togather.  In a nutshell one division is 6A and 5A, the next division is 1A, 2A  with 3A and 4A being determined in a joint decision by the state and member school. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

I looked up the schools listed as having wrestling teams in KY.  The number of teams according to KHSAA is 82.  (I know this is not 100% accurate)

Here is the breakdown

1A=5 schools

2A=7 Schools

3A=9 schools

4A=13 schools

5A=21 schools

6A=26 schools

That would equal

Small school 12

Large school 47

Undecided 22