Where was Eastern at Region 5 Duals?

[eaglewrestler12 2]

Or a thread started by a kid who is mad that another team didn't show up for something he felt was important.  Which is to be expected from high school males. 

Even if that were the reason the thread was started it turned into a full-on attack on Eastern that seemed to be lead by OCMVP. Btw just out of curiousity, what weight do you wrestle OCMVP?

[Olympic_wish 0]

Even if that were the reason the thread was started it turned into a full-on attack on Eastern that seemed to be lead by OCMVP. Btw just out of curiousity, what weight do you wrestle OCMVP?

A full out attack, don't be so sensitive.  Makes it seem like you have something to hide.

[eaglewrestler12 2]

A full out attack, don't be so sensitive.  Makes it seem like you have something to hide.

Ok. Maybe it wasn't a full-on attack. It was another high school wrestler saying my coaches who I look up to decision was stupid. Which I still don't understand why it's a stupid decision to cut a meet off the schedule if it's causing your team to miss almost a week of practice. And, before you so we should of though of this before our schedule was made, I'll say again that this meet was changed from a weekend to 2 weekdays.

[bulldog-leader 56]

FYI  I believe the reason we wrestle a dual tournament in our region NKAC is to determine who will go to the state duals. 

This is true, however why am I forced to take my team to this event?  I think that each team should be asked if they would like to compete in a dual tourney that will decide the state duals.  If you do not participate then you cannot represent the region at the state duals that year.

 

If you look at the more successful programs year in and out they typically have a stable staff of coaches and that does help tremendously.  

This can be somewhat true, but I have been at Holmes for almost 9 years now. 

I'm not trying to say that I am the most competent coach or one of the best.  I am far from either but:

It takes much more than a stable coach.  It takes parent support, school support, and alumni support to produce a program. 

I would say more than anything else the success in most programs come from the last.  Many of the successful programs have alumni either working as volunteer coaches.  Coaching their elementary and middle school programs.  And showing up to practice every once and awhile,  giving their time back for those alumni that returned and wrestled them when they were competing. 

This is not to mention the volunteer work by alumni for table help, working concessions, and the such. 

[Ranger123 43]

I don't think this was necessarily started to trash Eastern, but to discuss the logic behind not attending.  I understand the thinking of a busy week.  But what is on the schedule for Thursday?  I assume it is an "important" meet.  And grappler, you gotta come up with something better than Holmes.  Bulldog helped everyone to understand that the two situations are dramatically different.  I understand that the regional duals are not a "required" event, but I think it is generally accepted that everyone will attend.  And the same goes for the competition level discussion.  That doesn't apply here.  Are you trying to say that Eastern is so far below North Oldham, Oldham, and Fern Creek that they shouldn't even try to compete?  That's a joke.  We could probably hold all of the regional tournaments on Friday night this year, most of the kids aren't good enough to place so they should just stay home.  We can run some round robin pools to determine placements and call it a night.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

[Olympic_wish 0]

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

Fortunately, the majority of us aren't loners, and we like and feed off the atmosphere on a team.

[Ranger123 43]

Ranger;

The state duals and regional duals as they are both called, are no different than the WCI, TCI, or Bourbon Bash.  They are just another tournament.  They may be tougher than some of these other tournaments but they are still just tournaments.  Neither are sanctioned by the KHSAA.

I'm not sure exactly when they started the state duals but I know they were not around when I wrestled.  To tell the truth I'm not even sure how many duals we won when I wrestled.  No one really cared about the dual meet score.  The important thing was the matchups between the better wrestlers.

What it comes down to is that I am not a fan of the State Duals. 

Why are we trying to make wrestling into a team sport? 

This is one of the greatest things about wrestling.  You are in control of your own fate, your teammates do not determine if you go to the state tourney, nor do they determine your placement at the state tourney.  You only have yourself to blame for a loss and yourself to cheer for a win.  When we finally take the individuality out of wrestling it will be no better than any other team sport.  Pitchers can still be the strikeout king, but place last in their division, running backs can lead the league in yardage but the team can still place last.  No different than you can win all your matches at the state duals but your team still finishes 16th.

Not that I have ever been a big fan of the coaches association (a little research on here can prove that), but they evidently see the regional and state duals as something different than "any other tournament".  And other states are actually sanctioning the state dual championship and crowning the winner of that event as the team state champion. 

Sounds to me like your team wasn't too competitive so you never got a taste of the team aspect of wrestling.  While I do agree it is basically an individual sport, I still recall the moment when my team (as a head coach) won their first team trophy at a tournament.  We won individual medals (had at a number of tournaments), but that day we were a team and everyone contributed and knew their part (no matter how small) made a difference.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Fortunately, the majority of us aren't loners, and we like and feed off the atmosphere on a team.

It's more like people like to pass the blame off to someone else.  Blame your teammate for the loss.  It's never the individuals fault.  "If Joe Smo would not have dropped the ball we would not have lost"  (Fits baseball, basketball, and football.)

[Olympic_wish 0]

It's more like people like to pass the blame off to someone else.  Blame your teammate for the loss.  It's never the individuals fault.  "If Joe Smo would not have dropped the ball we would not have lost"  (Fits baseball, basketball, and football.)

B.S

Maybe that was the way it was in your day, but chalk that up to you/teammates/coach (probably you) thinking about only yourself.  You may blame others, a real team bolsters each other in success and defeat.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Sounds to me like your team wasn't too competitive so you never got a taste of the team aspect of wrestling. 

    We had much success back in my hayday, (and hopefully they will again soon, now that they have the opportunity again).  The team almost always finished higher than my own individual placement.  

    However few of us put any merit in the team trophy. It was fun bringing home a 1st or 2nd place team trophy but we reveled more in our individual medals. We realized that placing as high as you could in a tourney was more gratifying and it also helped the team, but the team took a backseat.  We cheered each other on and hoped for victory in everyones matches, but we never worried about scoring that extra point or two in a match to get the major or superior (no tech falls back then) to get the extra points.  Heck I would even bet most of us didn't know what a major or a superior was or that it scored the team more points.

[Olympic_wish 0]

    We had much success back in my hayday, (and hopefully they will again soon, now that they have the opportunity again).  The team almost always finished higher than my own individual placement. 

    However few of us put any merit in the team trophy. It was fun bringing home a 1st or 2nd place team trophy but we reveled more in our individual medals. We realized that placing as high as you could in a tourney was more gratifying and it also helped the team, but the team took a backseat.  We cheered each other on and hoped for victory in everyones matches, but we never worried about scoring that extra point or two in a match to get the major or superior (no tech falls back then) to get the extra points.  Heck I would even bet most of us didn't know what a major or a superior was or that it scored the team more points.

Well thank god wrestling has changed. 

[Olympic_wish 0]

One more point.  Look at the best teams in the state over the last 5 years.

Woodford

LaRue

Think they don't value the team concept at all?  All you have to do is look at LaRue's website where they tlak about their undefeated season.

Woodford's team chemistry stands on it's own.

[grappler-of-old 44]

B.S

Maybe that was the way it was in your day, but chalk that up to you/teammates/coach (probably you) thinking about only yourself.  You may blame others, a real team bolsters each other in success and defeat.

Truth is when I played those other team sports I always took the blame.  Mostly because it probably was my fault we lost, and if it wasn't I didn't mind if they blamed me.  There is always something more you could have done to help the team win.  

Wrestling changed all that.  I now did not have to worry about the team blaming me or me blaming myself for the teams lack of success.  I could now succeed on my own and cheer on my friends and teammates.  I could never blame them for my loss and they could not blame me for their loss. No more guilt for an error or missed play which may or may not have caused the team to loss the game.  

[grappler-of-old 44]

One more point.  Look at the best teams in the state over the last 5 years.

Woodford

LaRue

Think they don't value the team concept at all?  All you have to do is look at LaRue's website where they tlak about their undefeated season.

Woodford's team chemistry stands on it's own.

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

[Olympic_wish 0]

Truth is when I played those other team sports I always took the blame.  Mostly because it probably was my fault we lost, and if it wasn't I didn't mind if they blamed me.  There is always something more you could have done to help the team win. 

Wrestling changed all that.  I now did not have to worry about the team blaming me or me blaming myself for the teams lack of success.  I could now succeed on my own and cheer on my friends and teammates.  I could never blame them for my loss and they could not blame me for their loss. No more guilt for an error or missed play which may or may not have caused the team to loss the game. 

Disagree.

My teammates harped on all of us making each other better.  You didn't work your mate in practice, your blame, your fault.  You didn't cheer loud and stand behind everyone, your blame, your fault.  Our outlook, which i will guarantee is shared by most teams in this state and others is that we were an individual link in one big chain.  Everyone had to pull their weight to succeed.  We did well indivudally because we were coached well, and honestly, more importantly, we worked each other to the fullest.

[Olympic_wish 0]

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

Suffered?  Heck no.  Energized is more like it.  When a team wins a state championship, be it duals or individual everyone benefits.  I bet if you asked even pat Banks he'd agree

53- Woodford

8- LaRue

[grappler-of-old 44]

OK as I think I have mentioned before in a post way back.  I was part of a state championship team.  I was extremely young but still part of the team when it happened.  I would gladly turn in my spot on that chapionship team for an individual state title. 

I believe if you asked Mr Banks deep down he would agree.  (No disrespect Mr. Banks, as you know I believed you to be one of the greatest wrestlers to come out of KY)

[Ranger123 43]

And exactly how many individual state champions have they developed?  I think the individuals have suffered for this hyper team concept at Larue.

Olympic wish beat me to it.  I won't even touch Woodford; no need.  Larue has exactly 8 individual titles.  And that's with a team that has only existed since 1990.  I think a lot of teams would like to have 8 individual state titles.  Like all of the Lexington schools (except Henry Clay), Harrison County, PRP, and Johnson Central to name a few.  And exactly how does a "team" focus keep individuals from winning?

[Olympic_wish 0]

Olympic wish beat me to it.  I won't even touch Woodford; no need.  Larue has exactly 8 individual titles.  And that's with a team that has only existed since 1990.  I think a lot of teams would like to have 8 individual state titles.  Like all of the Lexington schools (except Henry Clay), Harrison County, PRP, and Johnson Central to name a few.  And exactly how does a "team" focus keep individuals from winning?

The woodford # i knew off the top of my head, had to look up laRue.

It doesn't.  And if grapp would trade in that state team title.  Sorry man.  You'd be about the only one, ever I think.

[Ranger123 43]

It just hit me how far we are off topic (maybe that is a good thing), but I'll use my personal experience to argue against you grappler.  I came up short my senior year.  Probably should have been going for my 3rd title (if I didn't have to make weight and broken bones didn't impact my wrestling ability).  But I came up short again.  And to this day one of the first things I think about is how my team's 4th place finish (tied for the highest ever I think) would have been higher if I hadn't choked.  I let my team down.  But my team picked me up and helped me roar back for a 3rd place finish.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Exactly my point Ranger.  Your team picked you up, they didn't do it for the team they did it because they wanted you to succeed.

I have never mentioned that having a team behind you does not help.  It gives you people in your corner to cheer you on, and help pick you up when your are down. 

As for how it has hindered them.  When an individual takes on the team concept he can rise and fall with his team.  When the team has fallen short of their goal in a tourney this falls to those who still must wrestle.  Ie The finalists and or semi finalists.  When the depression (I know this is a strong word, but can't think of another word because I am so dramatic), of not accomplishing the team goals, outweigh the high or adrenaline rush of working toward your individual goal, is when it becomes a hindrance to the individual. 

[Ranger123 43]

Exactly my point Ranger.  Your team picked you up, they didn't do it for the team they did it because they wanted you to succeed.

I have never mentioned that having a team behind you does not help.  It gives you people in your corner to cheer you on, and help pick you up when your are down. 

As for how it has hindered them.  When an individual takes on the team concept he can rise and fall with his team.  When the team has fallen short of their goal in a tourney this falls to those who still must wrestle.  Ie The finalists and or semi finalists.  When the depression (I know this is a strong word, but can't think of another word because I am so dramatic), of not accomplishing the team goals, outweigh the high or adrenaline rush of working toward your individual goal, is when it becomes a hindrance to the individual. 

Not exactly.  I can still here the words "the team needs you".  We had just gone through a tough battle with Woodford and Sheldon Clark in the region and thought we had a shot to compete for the state title.  I completely agree with you on the rise and fall of a team impacting individuals.  But it works both ways.  That adrenaline can help a kid pull the upset as well as another to choke.

[bulldog-leader 56]

    OK guys I think maybe I should try and smooth things out here.  Since GOO (I like this name, I think that is what I'm gonna call you from now on) was influenced by my rants of the state duals.

    His one year of spending time with me every day has rubbed off on him.  It is my fault for his distaste for the state duals and dual meets.  His comment of trading in his team state title came from me.  I have made the statement that I would trade in my state runner up team title for an individual state title or even runner up, and I convinced him of the same thing. It was also my point that we didn't know the points needed to win duals.

    I do know the importance of a team.  This is where I probably did not explain to him well enough.  Team are extremely important for the morale of wrestlers.  Without a team it is very difficult for individuals to push themselves farther and harder.  There is no one to pick them up when they are down. (IE Golsby).

    My distaste for the state duals comes from when I was coaching at Campbell Co. Many of the other coaches would switch their wrestlers around in wt. classes just trying to win a dual.  While I was there we did not do this.  We almost always kept everyone at the same wt. class the entire tournament, barring an injury, or trying to get a JV wrestler a match.  It has gotten so bad that there had to be a rule made for who had to send their wrestler to the score table 1st.  To me this is where I disagree.  If a wrestler has earned his spot on the varsity, why should he give it up to the wrestler below him?  I know the arguments, but I don't agree with them. 

    Maybe things have changed since I left Campbell 9 years ago. But at that time Coach Bankemper believed the same way.  We also never told the kids about scoring the extra points for majors or superiors then later tech falls.  Our concern was winning the match then the team score will fall into place.  WIN then PIN.

    We lost the 1990 state duals because our HWT thought he had to pin Washington to win the dual.  He rushed a pin in the 1st period and gave up 5 points then had to make a come back.  He had pinned Washington every other time they met, but because of going for the pin early he was unable to pin him this time.  That same year when everyone lost in the semifinals (Except Zinga) The team rallied behind Wilkins when he won a match to get him to the placement round.  It was the turning point and sparked the final round come back to win the team title.

Once again blame this one on me. I corrupted him on this one.

[Ranger123 43]

Good explanation bulldog.  I would use the following analogy to calm your (and others) distaste for duals.  You don't hate football just because some teams run the option offense (boring).  A teams strategy shouldn't affect the way you look at an entire competition.  I don't really like all of the moving around either.  My coach never considered it.  But there are instances where it makes sense.  Coach B doesn't move guys around much, although he will adjust (occasionally) if the opposing coach changes his lineup.