Large public university to start wrestling team?

[grapplehed 8]

http://www.themat.com/forms/Georgia%20and%20Intercollegiate%20Wrestling%20-%20-%20A%20Good%20_Match_%20_August%202006_.pdf

My friend Leo send this to me after our last coversation Evilledad!  I have not had time to siff through it but what I have read, seems like we could follow a similar pattern, maybe chat with them and see what they would do differently if they were in our shoes. 

[Charger Coach 14]

Grapplehed, that is a very valid point.  But, what helps those lesser teams in conferences like the MAC, is the fact that they have some TV deals (they have teams play on ESPN from time to time especially on Thursday & Friday nights) & any time a team from their conference makes a bowl game, they share in the revenue as a conference.  Those profits not only go to the teams competing, but also to other teams in the conference.  There are no bowl games in wrestling to help generate revenue & really no T.V. deals outside of the few times you may see a few of the major programs wrestle on ESPNU or the NCAA championships.  That is the major reason the D1 programs will not get rid of the bowl games is because they are a major money maker for the universities due to the corporate sponsorships.  A playoff will eliminate revenue generated for the lesser conferences because they would not compete in bowl games.  If they went to an 8 or 16 team playoff, conferences like the MAC, Mountain West, Conference USA etc. would never be extended an invitation.  However, 30 bowl games or whatever number they are up to right now will give those teams chances to play in the postseason, regardless if it is the Maxipad Who Gives a Damn bowl or not.  I also doubt I will ever see UTC or App. St. wrestle on ESPN anytime soon, but I do see Toledo, Miami, Ohio, etc. play on ESPN, ESPN2 & ESPNU.  Also, let's face it, 5 or 6 home games with 10,000 to 15,000 in attendance will generate a little more money than 1 or 2 home wrestling meets with 2,000 to 3,000 in attendance.  Throw in the fact that football is a mainstream sport that alumni will tend to support a little more & they get the benefit of the doubt.  Also to the point I made earlier and the point you supported, there is a major interest in wrestling in the states of Ohio & Illinois so universities like Ohio & Northern Illinois have wrestling teams & Kentucky & Louisville don't.  I would love to see nothing more than kids like Harrison Courtney, Brian Peace & Mason Reid wrestle at home in state at the U of K, but we just will never get to see that.  Those kids deserve the chance to stay in state & compete at the D1 level.  As to the point of other non revenue sports, that is also very valid.  However, the sports you named have a counter sport for females (back to the Title IX thing).  Also, sports like swimming & tennis have facilities that are open to the student body as a whole.  They are just reserved for team sports during practices & meets.  I highly doubt the student body has a need to use a wrestling room or throw dummies.

Once again, I think we agree on the fact that wrestling programs at Kentucky, Louisville, etc. you have already been established, but we just disagree on why it has not happened.  You made very valid points & provided a different way to view this issue, which often times does not happen on this site.  I appreciate that.

[grapplehed 8]

Somehow we have veered, Football and bowl games and wrestling, or any other minor sport, comparing  apples to oranges.

Nonrevenue sports, most of the schools that I know of do not open there facilities to the public, some swimimng programs do, tennis yes, baseball no, volleyball no. A wrestling room w/ high ceilings could be used for multi purpose or intramurals. 

If there is so much support in OH and IL, why do they keep dropping programs.  It has little to do with numbers.  Eastern IL 07just dropped.  Illinois state-94, Miami OH-99 gone, Capitol, Bowling green, Toledo, wright state, dayton, UC, Xavier all gone.  western Michigan, ferris state, Lake superior, grand valley state, all gone. All of these had programs when I wrestled in college, except UC and Xavier. The schools are listed below.

What is the counter sport to football? It's not supposed to be about the money, remember.  Instead of increasing the funds and opportunities for womens sports, they have made wrestling the sacraficial lamb.

Whats my point! I have no idea, but we agree that we need a program at a major school.  Evilledad hit it with the point that we need to find someone with the deep pockets and or someone in a hard hitting position, like AD, congressman, alumni etc. 

If you look at some of the DIII or DII schools in KY and their conferences, most of the those schools have more female programs than mens, the numbers may not be the same though.

Check out this... these are schools in OH, KY, IN, IL since 1972.  I am not sure when Xavier dropped. 

Akron

Bluffton College

Bowling Green

Cedarville

Central State

Cincinnati

U. Of Dayton

Defiance College

Denison

Hiram College

Kenyon College

Malone College

Marietta College

Miami of Ohio

Oberlin College

Ohio Wesleyan

Otterbein College

Toledo

Urbana College

Wittenburg

Wooster

Wright State

Youngstown State

Eastern Kentucky

Kentucky

Belleville Area College

Chicago St.

Concordia Univ.

Depaul

Illinois Inst. of Tech

Illinois State

Lake Forest College

Monmouth College

Southern Ill.-Carbondale

Western IllinoisAnderson

Ball State

Earlham College

Evansville

Hanover College

Indiana State

Notre Dame

St. Joseph College

Taylor

Valparaiso

[Charger Coach 14]

Once again, I give you credit for the research.  By the way, volleyball is the counter sport to football at most universities. 

[wcwrestler189 0]

It would be nice to have a D1 school in Ky but i think we all need to get behind Cambellsville and Cumberland.  Campellsville is having a great season and Cumberland is rebuilding and will be great again soon.  Naia might not be as glorified as NCAA, but NAIAs not a joke

[BluegrassRiver 0]

Dragonmaster, I am sure women wrestlers are getting scholarships at any school that has a wrestling program.  You can't give scholarships to only one sex.  Cumberland's program has many young women who get scholarships.

Yes we need to support Cumberland and Campbellsville programs.  My point was not that we need D1 wrestling but we need one PUBLIC university with the lower state supported tuition in order to advance the sport in this state. Northern Ky U. would be a great start!  That's good the state legislature has passed a resolution in favor.  Take that to each AD and their staff.

Individual letters to AD's from people who are strangers to them will do little good.  This really must be a priority effort by the coaches association or a booster with money who has access.  Comb your lists of athletic donors to public universities to find someone who once wrestled or has a kid who does now. They can get an appointment and make the case. 

It seems like just one university should realize the potential in having students from 75-80 high schools to now be considering them for application!

[eville dad 17]

I agree and do support Campbellsville and Cumberlands both great schools and teams.

I just want the State to have a State school offer the sport regardless of the class.

[grapplehed 8]

1st, let me say this is a great topic, and it shouldn't go away.  I will continue to support both Campellsville and Cumberland but it would be great to get another one started. 

Bluegrass River, not sure about Cumberland, but I remember when they started.  I believe that both men's and women's programs are maxed at 10 scholarships each.  Don't hold me to that.  I also have a hunch that USAW may have had some type of Grant of sorts to get the womens program going. 

I believe Cumberland was struggling financially at one time, gambled and added sports, therefore increasing male enrollment.  The college of Mt. St. Joe did the same thing about 15 years ago, when they allowed males to enroll, then added football, wrestling, baseball etc.  Not bad for a DIII Private school, non scholarship college. 

[Charger Coach 14]

Name me one wrestling program who has a female on their wrestling team who is on scholarship.  Better yet, name me one female who has been offered a scholarship to wrestle in college!  I am not talking about females getting scholarships in all sports.  Of course they are offered scholarships in softball, women's basketball, volleyball, etc.  That wasn't the point I was trying to make.  At the high school level, women compete on men's wrestling teams.  That is a given.  However, I have yet to see a female compete on a college wrestling team, much less be on scholarship for wrestling.  In order for wrestling to be considered a coed sport in college, women must compete & have the opportunity to obtain athletic scholarships for that given sport.  That is a fact.  Wrestling is a male sport on the college level not coed.  I would like nothing more than to see wrestling offered as a varsity sport at a public university just the same as anyone else on here does, but it won't happen any time soon, if at all.  Think about it, how many club teams have been started at public universities in Kentucky?  Have they succeeded?  Do you think public universities are willing to put up the money to finance a wrestling team as a varsity sport if they don't even succeed as a club sport?  They simply see it as wasted money.  If we can get behind a club team, like the one at UK & help them to succeed, then maybe the administration would see the potential the sport has & begin to seriously think about offering it as a varsity or scholarship sport.  Maybe that is what we need to do!  Just a suggestion.

[wcwrestler189 0]

Cumberland actually has a whole team of girls with alot of them on scholarship

[grapplehed 8]

Dragon,

College Wrestling Scholarships for women?

July 6, 2007 at 8:54 pm

[Charger Coach 14]

I understand and knew there were a few wrestling programs in college for only women just like they have female hockey teams in the NCAA now.  Once again, my point has been misunderstood.  I was talking about on a men's team!  If a school has a men's wrestling team, in order for the university to consider it coed, they have to offer & give scholarships to women to compete on THAT team.  If they can't do that, then Title IX can & more than likely will come into play with participation numbers, sports offered, financing, etc.If you are saying that as long as a sport has women who participate whether it is at the collegiate level or not, then all sports would be considered coed.  Second, I am not saying that kids will go to a university to wrestle for a club.  However, you can't tell me there aren't some very good wrestlers who are already attending UK who wouldn't be interested in wrestling for the club team that is supposedly already there.  Hell, people wrestle freestyle tournaments all summer long for fun.  If some data was produced that would point to a high chance of success rate for a wrestling program at Kentucky & the adminstration might be more inclined to start a program.  If the club team were to succeed with participation numbers, the university might take notice.  That's all I am saying.  Look, we can sit here & argue about why there is not a wrestling program in Kentucky at a public university.  I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.  The bottom line is regardless of whether I think there hasn't been a wrestling program started for this reason & you for a different reason, there still isn't a wrestling program.  Suggestions as to what could expedite this process are what are needed here.  Mine, support a club team like the one that has supposedly already been started at UK.  Help them get the word out across campus that there is a team, help them build a fan base, etc.  Yours appears to be build it and they will come.  Others have the find deep pockets to help fund it approach.  Anyone else with a different suggestion please, because I am through arguing, I'm just interested in suggestions.

[grapplehed 8]

I am not trying to point and counterpoint, well maybe, just for arguement sake.  I think we need to consider all aspects.  I think you have backed my position already, there are plenty of great wrestlers at UK that don't wrestle for the club if in fact they have one.  Not sure if we really found out if they actually have a club.  I agree that there should be a club in place to solidfy things, but it is really hard without the funds and support to push for a varsity program. 

I think I understand where you are coming from on Men's team with women on it.  They are not entitled to give them money, they would be considered a walk on.  If a female wanted to wrestle on a collegiate program, why wouldn't she go to a program with women's wrestling?  2nd, I definitely don't know of any women earning scholarships over a male on that program.  Sounds like recruiting problems. 

Dragon it's been good, I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just know from personal experience from both wrestling and coaching at the collegiate level it will take more than just the club. 

Ideally, if there could be a club with financial and political support to push for a varsity sport.  If I had it myself, I would have already done it. 

[Olympic_wish 0]

I am not trying to point and counterpoint, well maybe, just for arguement sake.  I think we need to consider all aspects.  I think you have backed my position already, there are plenty of great wrestlers at UK that don't wrestle for the club if in fact they have one.  Not sure if we really found out if they actually have a club.  I agree that there should be a club in place to solidfy things, but it is really hard without the funds and support to push for a varsity program. 

I think I understand where you are coming from on Men's team with women on it.  They are not entitled to give them money, they would be considered a walk on.  If a female wanted to wrestle on a collegiate program, why wouldn't she go to a program with women's wrestling?  2nd, I definitely don't know of any women earning scholarships over a male on that program.  Sounds like recruiting problems. 

Dragon it's been good, I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just know from personal experience from both wrestling and coaching at the collegiate level it will take more than just the club. 

Ideally, if there could be a club with financial and political support to push for a varsity sport.  If I had it myself, I would have already done it. 

Won't happen at our public universities.  Remember, we like football and basketball, and sometimes baseball.  We have track and soccer to appease the non big 3 fans.  Wrestling won't find a place.

[out side sweep 0]

It sounds like the biggest problem now in trying to get a club team is money. I would be willing to give to a fund at UK or other university if it would help.  Those of you working on this, let us know if there is truly a club program and how we can help. Talking about it on the internet will not get it done. If you build it, they will come.

[Yodawrestles 0]

I doubt that U.k would start include a wrestling program (not a club) because of the limitations the S E C puts on them.  The S.E.C used to have some powerhouse wrestling teams.  Woodford Joe Carr and two of his brothers wrestled there and i think his brother Jimi (who is the youngest person to medal in Olympic wrestling) was at U.K.  Joe even coached at U.K until the S.E.C. destroyed the program.  So i believe that any effort should include Joe Sr atleast as an advisor.  Let me put this thought out, find out what collegiate clubs are existing now, then allow every H.S program in the state to take up either donations/or pledge 100 dollars to a year. Since there are over 100 wrestling programs in the state this little fund can generate over 10 grand which is a lot considering they are getting little to nothing presently.