Officials

[grappler-of-old 44]

Since this was kind of talked about on another thread I decided to start it's own tread.

Who are the better officials and why.

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

Best to stay away from the topic, IMO.  Not sure it will really be productive.

[Ranger123 43]

Best to stay away from the topic, IMO.  Not sure it will really be productive.

Why?  We are pointing out why we think some officials stand out from a positive perspective.  I'm sure some will disagree with observations, but I think it will give fans and other officials some ideas about watching certain guys and what they do well.

[old140 4]

Best in my opinion is Barnett.  All is his calls are very consistent, and he doesnt let any coaches persuade him.  He likes to see constant action and will hit you for stalling very quickly.

[Old School 0]

Best in my opinion is Barnett.  All is his calls are very consistent, and he doesnt let any coaches persuade him.  He likes to see constant action and will hit you for stalling very quickly.

CONCUR :wink:

[exhawk 0]

A few issues really bother me about KY officiating. On a whole, KY reffs do a poor job on calling takedowns/reversals from scramble positions. If you go to Ohio or PA, a takedown is called when the wrestler hooks a foot and has his hands behind the armpits of the other wrestler. When our kids wrestle out of state they are amazed at how fast take downs are called.

Another problem is the inconsistency with the out of bounds calls. Some reffs call out of bounds when a wrestlers foot graces the out of bounds line, others call takedowns when  a wrestler has 2 toes in bounds. I think the reffs that are unwilling to change need to take into account the fact that college officials call 2 feet in a takedown, reffs in other states and at national tournaments consistently call 2 feet in a takedown. It is unfair to kids who want to wrestle on a higher level to not look at how the rest of the country is doing things.

The last thing that really bothers me is how slowly near fall points are awarded. When wrestlers are working more advanced techniques (especially tilts) I feel like many kids aren

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

Ranger, exhawk proved my point where this shouldn't go.  However, I agree with those who mentioned Barnett.  It's sad that no other names are mentioned.

A good referee remembers that fans are there to see good, fair wrestling...not the referee.  A good ref calls a pin firmly, confidently without emotion.  A good referee gets down to the mat quickly on a takedown to look for the pin.  A good referee actually watches the match the entire time.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Anywhere else you tilt someone(besides KY), it's a quick 1-2, and two backs, none of this 1 M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

Grappler, you make a great point.  Most sports have a referee evaluation and review process that helps provide independent review and evaluation of a referee's performance from time to time.  I know this means more cost for a tournament but it would be nice to have this process to keep referee's on their toes.

[grapplehed 8]

Ex hawk, firmed it nicely.  There is probably good reason why I have never seen an official from KY at any national or national caliper tournament.  Like Hawk, I have spent a great deal of time at both HS and college tournaments.  One thing he pointed out that I didn't elaborate was the back points.  I did go to the Ironman the last two years, a lot of TILTS. 

Neely would sit on the edge of the mat when he was officiating as well.  Just kidding.  However, he was the king of cautions.  Of all the states covered, I have never, NEVER seen a kid cautioned out of a match, except KY.

Barnett seems most consistent, although the sermons he gives kids are a bit long winded.

I am sure I could come up with a long list of things, as we all could both good and bad.  Here is my point..

have the officials spend some time at a national tournament such as the Beast, Ironman, HS Nationals, NCAA officialsl clinics.  Of course, Julian would cover this expense.  It would be worth it.

[Old School 0]

Ranger, exhawk proved my point where this shouldn't go.  However, I agree with those who mentioned Barnett.  It's sad that no other names are mentioned.

A good referee remembers that fans are there to see good, fair wrestling...not the referee.  A good ref calls a pin firmly, confidently without emotion.  A good referee gets down to the mat quickly on a takedown to look for the pin.  A good referee actually watches the match the entire time.

We have a few other good referee's most people always bring up Barnett because they have the most respect for him.

I recall matches at state (Barnett) I may not agree with him on a call, but again I was probably wrong.

[Ranger123 43]

Old School - disagreement with the best ref doesn't mean you are wrong; he will make his fair share of mistakes as well.  But Barnett is one of the most consistent and is not affected by the coach in the corner.

wrestlingfanatic - okay, you were right.  Let's not turn this into a forum to tell all that is wrong with officials in KY.  We know that we have too few and too little experience.  But I will say that I get to Ohio a number of times each year and have not been overly impressed.  I think they seem to go way overboard on the nearfall counts.  This past weekend I saw some points awarded during the time it took my to blink my eyes.

It seems like everyone agrees that Barnett is one of the top guys in KY.  Who else does a good job?

[ARealWrestlingFanatic 1]

Unfortunately, I don't know any of the others names.  Seems that I can always remember the names of the ones I don't care for.  I don't have much experience with Ohio.  I have alot of experience in Indiana and overall believe they are more professional and consistent.  As with other refs, I don't always agree with how they call it, but from mat to mat, you'll get a consistent call.  I don't like, however, that they don't seem to give points when there is a takedown out of bounds even though the wrestler still has both feet clearly in bounds.  The key for a good officiated tournament in any state should be consistency in the calls from mat to mat.  It is hard enough for a wrestler to strategize for a match with an opponent without having to figure out which referee they are going to have as well.

[grapplehed 8]

Ranger,

I go to OH as well, that doesn't mean they are good officials.  As a matter of fact, the worst (give or take) officiating I have ever seen was in Madison, IN. 

I am sure these officials are brought in to these big tournaments for  a reason, they are good.  Shouldn't we open our minds and learn from the best. 

[plee 0]

i realize this thread was started to discuss the better refs and why, but it has sort of people don't want this thread to get to a point of personally attacking refs....and perhaps another thread should be started, BUT...i wanted to throw this idea out there on how the referee situation could be improved.  In ohio, their refs are required to attend a certain number of actual training sessions.  they usually cover a few specific topics.  such as stalling.  they review films, etc.  there is usually a senior referee who watches the film with the group, and they discuss it.  it seems to me this is how they develop consistency. 

[eville dad 17]

Ex hawk, firmed it nicely.  There is probably good reason why I have never seen an official from KY at any national or national caliper tournament. 

We saw the KY Lady Ref at Fargo, (I think her name is Tasha). Doesnt get much bigger than that for youth wrestling, she does a great job!

I have also seen another KY Ref at a National but I dont know his name, blonde hair crew cut, great ref, very professional!

[Old School 0]

i realize this thread was started to discuss the better refs and why, but it has sort of people don't want this thread to get to a point of personally attacking refs....and perhaps another thread should be started, BUT...i wanted to throw this idea out there on how the referee situation could be improved.  In Ohio, their refs are required to attend a certain number of actual training sessions.  they usually cover a few specific topics.  such as stalling.  they review films, etc.  there is usually a senior referee who watches the film with the group, and they discuss it.  it seems to me this is how they develop consistency. 

Phee, that requirement to attend training or clinic is true to improve the consistency and understanding of the rules.

Regrettable, we don't have enough events over the summer and fall to assist the referee's.  Maybe, the Kentucky Coaches Assoication or Coach Smith could sponsor a few events with some of the top referee's from KY, Ind, OH. for our newer referee's.

What tape, discuss right-wrong call's and why, common mistakes, lesson learned ect. 

Maybe even make the coaches attend :?

If you don't attend one of the events, your not certified to referee :?

Its a start.

[Charger Coach 14]

I think Mark Shumate does a great job.  You know he is in control of the match at all points, but yet he doesn't make the match about himself.  He is clear, quick and concise with his decisions and is very consistent.  What I like most about Shumate is that he talks to you like a human.  Anyway, there are some other good ones out there.  One, and I can't remember his last name off hand, is Rocky (somebody help me with the last name).  He reffed at the Lonesome this year.  He is another one who seems to always be in control of the match yet the spotlight is where it should be and that is on the kids.  A few young refs to watch for IMO are Sam Durbin and Tom Kusnir.  We have had them a couple of times this year and for 1st (Tom) and 2nd (Sam) year refs, they do a pretty good job.  They seem to very knowledgable of the rules and are what I think is the most important thing for a ref, consistent.

[grappler-of-old 44]

Old School.  

    Most of your ideas are sound however we already have a shortage of officials in KY.  We don't have enough to go around already.  I believe that this was discussed about having them attend a meeting or two, but as I have pointed out if we loose more officials then we will not have enough.

    As for the Caution calls in KY.  The reason they are called is because they are there.  In other states you don't have as many 1st year wrestlers wrestling varsity.  Most of them have wrestled for many years and know the rules and don't start incorrectly.  Once again.  If it is an illegal start it needs to be called.  It has little to do with the officials but more to do with the wrestlers committing the cautions.  

    As for officials from Ky.  Don Salyers use to do the national events back in the 80s and early 90s.  He also did collage events.  He was the head official in Ky for many years.  

[Old School 0]

Its frustrating to continue to hear that programs are going under, or new ones can't be created;not because no kids - but NO Coaches. 

We have continuing problems with a lack of quality officials or just lack of. 

Do the other sports have these problems :? If not why and what can be done to resolve our sports problem.

I wonder what Mr. Julian Tackett, Assistant Commissioner and the rest of the states board members are doing to assist with small sports marketing, see'ing what works in other states ect to grow our sports:?

I know we spend LOTS of MONEY$$ for these guys to go to meeting, seminars ect.

Wouldn't that be part of his responsibilites, or is it to just keep Football and Basketball folks happy :x

Again, frustrating :-(

[CoachK 2]

I don't really think there is an answer to the officials in Kentucky.  The best thing we could do is encourage those of our wrestlers who are graduating to try and get into it while they are in college or at their other jobs.  This way you at least have someone who has a feeling for wrestling and knowing what it's like.  Wrestling is a little different from basketball, baseball, football where people have watched hundreds or thousands of games on t.v. or in live and have a feel for it that way.  Referee's are required to go to a rules meeting each year and pass the test(to participate in postseason) but making it much more than that might discourage them to do it or make it not possible for them to if they are involved in other things the rest of the year.  We also need to try and not run off the new ones but offer what we thought was good/bad etc.  I think if the newer ones were able to do more scrimmages and wrestle off's in the beginning of the season that would help as well. 

[Frogman 0]

I don't really think there is an answer to the officials in Kentucky.  The best thing we could do is encourage those of our wrestlers who are graduating to try and get into it while they are in college or at their other jobs.  This way you at least have someone who has a feeling for wrestling and knowing what it's like.  Wrestling is a little different from basketball, baseball, football where people have watched hundreds or thousands of games on t.v. or in live and have a feel for it that way.  Referee's are required to go to a rules meeting each year and pass the test(to participate in postseason) but making it much more than that might discourage them to do it or make it not possible for them to if they are involved in other things the rest of the year.  We also need to try and not run off the new ones but offer what we thought was good/bad etc.  I think if the newer ones were able to do more scrimmages and wrestle off's in the beginning of the season that would help as well. 

Regarding referees there is know consistinse ,u will be at one tournement and it will be diffrenent all over. The only way this will change is if

KY coaches Assocation gets together with referees sets up live instructionaly clinics and videos . Each region needs to host one with all the coaches in each region and the refes in that area. If u desire a out side opinion then invite refs from outside Ky to with the clinics. The more times these clinics are held the better the calls will be. There will be something accountablity.

[grapplehed 8]

I disagree Grappler of Old, I saw plenty of what would normally be called cautions at the Ironman.  Fact is they don't give a crap and frankly see it as a waste of time.  They didn't even take the time to check, the whistle was blown before the top had time to settle in. 

Don Salyers was the man. 

[colonelcoach2007 0]

In western KY the majority of referees have a slow way of hitting a guy for stalling. In practice we make the guys work and tell our wrestlers to go forward. If a wrestler is constantly being pushed back and does not at least circle, then he is stalling. Then when these western Kentucky kids get to state, they get burned for stalling when they take a step back. We do need consistency.

Back points are very inconsistent and the calling of takedowns until you get to the refs at state. You see new refs pop up all the time. I have done my share of reffing. It is not easy, when you recieve little to no training. The test is nice, but I agree the training videos and meetings with a senior ref would be a great start.

I AGREE totally with the two toes in rule for a takedown. I cant begin to tell you how many times I see a kid takedown a wrestler and drag their toes to keep them in bounds. We teach that, and then when the kid does not receive the takedown, they are really down.

There was one middle school boy this year who put a double chicken wing locked at the middle of the back. The kid was getting ready to turn his opponent and the ref stopped the match saying that he had to have it locked either to the right or left side. Ive never heard of that......Could be wrong but I dont think so....

A lot of work. Dont think that the refs are trying to make bad calls, they just need uniform training methods. Consistency is key.

[exhawk 0]

Yes, i agree that consistency is the key. I think our reffs need to be consistent on a state and national level. KY wrestling is growing by leaps and bounds, and this past year we saw way more kids compete at a national level than ever before, and I expect those numbers to be even higher this year. We need to try to get our officiating consistent on the national level so that our wrestlers are not at a disadvantage.