Post State Thoughts

[GentleBeard 145]

2 minutes ago, gameface said:

Great Throwback picture!! Thank you for sharing. I believe several of those kids were in Elementary school at the time too. Just on the podium alone is at least 9 state HS titles. Does anyone know who the kid In 4th place is. Obviously tough as nails, placed higher than my kid on the podium

I'm not sure, but I know there were at least 11 state titles in that 16 man bracket

[grappler-of-old 44]

16 minutes ago, gameface said:

Great Throwback picture!! Thank you for sharing. I believe several of those kids were in Elementary school at the time too. Just on the podium alone is at least 9 state HS titles. Does anyone know who the kid In 4th place is. Obviously tough as nails, placed higher than my kid on the podium

I looked it up Nate Sawyer (Fern Creek)

[Wrestling247365 1]

48 minutes ago, panthers said:

All in all it was great some matches and there was some problems or disagreements of course its ran by humans for humans and none are prefect. As for the Stalling calls or no calls I would just say I don't think it would be as a bad or look as bad a thing if it was called all year. From the mat returns in 5 seconds to getting ran out of bounds they are never called during the year consistently but at state you are hit with them really quick. It wasn't called like that at semi-state either. That was the biggest complaint I heard about the calls is just do it all year.  Is it the rule yes so lets call it all the time. 

As for the location and school I think it is an amazing school but just way to many people and uncomfortable seating to host an event for that many hours. By the second day your back is killing ya, butts are hurting and tempers are high.  I heard the people next to us ask really nice for people to sit down by rails (which was announced all day not stand at ) so they could see only to be cussed out by more than one group of people. This is partly due to KHSAA having rules and not enforcing them and not having suitable seating for people to all be able to see or be comfortable while doing so. Its wrestling we are all used to long days but with so much at stake and as long as it is we need some comfort too. I think under the conditions it was ran good and congrats to all the winners and kids that made it that far.

With the "5 second return" there is nothing in the rules that puts a time on it. The rule states while standing behind the opponent while making no attempt to return. Nothing about a 5 count. 

 

[OhioWrestler&Reff68 14]

Very entertaining to read these.  Took a phone call for me to get on here and read these during my lunch break.   

 

-Andrew Dennison the Grinch or A-hole, I guess.   

[OhioWrestler&Reff68 14]

Better than last year as last year I was that Goonie on Steroids.  

[gameface 253]

30 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

I'm not sure, but I know there were at least 11 state titles in that 16 man bracket

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

[Elite Training Center KY 37]

1 minute ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

Looks like they let the KHSAA seed this bracket lol bottom heavy much?

[Bobby Lee Schwartz 1]

2 minutes ago, Wrestling247365 said:

With the "5 second return" there is nothing in the rules that puts a time on it. The rule states while standing behind the opponent while making no attempt to return. Nothing about a 5 count. 

 

Correct, but five seconds is kind of the measuring stick here and you know it.  There are norms within the sport/community that we all know so stop being a robot.  If a kid stays in rear standing past five seconds the entire gym is waiting for a stall call to come.  When a ref takes the match into his own hands and makes a bone head stall call with seconds to go to decide the winner he's going to hear about it.  ESPECIALLY in a hwt match where action is already limited.  

[Wrestling247365 1]

10 minutes ago, Bobby Lee Schwartz said:

Correct, but five seconds is kind of the measuring stick here and you know it.  There are norms within the sport/community that we all know so stop being a robot.  If a kid stays in rear standing past five seconds the entire gym is waiting for a stall call to come.  When a ref takes the match into his own hands and makes a bone head stall call with seconds to go to decide the winner he's going to hear about it.  ESPECIALLY in a hwt match where action is already limited.  

Norms??? I am just stating what the rule book says. People that dont know the rules hear coaches and other fans yell "5 seconds" and assume that's a rule so they start getting loud about it as well.  

If your interested, we can always use more officials on the mats. Please feel free to fill out information below and get updates on when the new licensing opens, the training opportunities, and clinic. 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

[GentleBeard 145]

1 hour ago, OhioWrestler&Reff68 said:

Better than last year as last year I was that Goonie on Steroids.  

That’s silly. You’re not on roids.

[OhioWrestler&Reff68 14]

1 minute ago, GentleBeard said:

That’s silly. You’re not on roids.

If I am, I need my money back as I was cheated. 

[GentleBeard 145]

1 hour ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

I wonder where that ranks all-time? I feel like that amount of state titles in a single bracket is an all-timer.

[GentleBeard 145]

1 hour ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

Braedon Herron in the bracket, too? Name just misspelled. I missed that. Holy Smokes that bracket has to be the deepest Kentucky has had, right? I mean, with the help of hindsight, obviously. 1st, 3rd, and 5th placers are at D1 schools now, and Kinley is playing D1 football? To be honest, all the kids I remembered from that bracket were Devon, Cole, Spencer, and Blaine. I didn't realize the depth. 9 State titles among the bottom half of the bracket. 

[OhioWrestler&Reff68 14]

8 hours ago, coachteater said:

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

 

So Scotty, we now have to pick and choose when to call stalling or any other calls and forgo the rule book?  In all my years and all the places that I've officiated I've never heard of this "unwritten rule".  Is it a KY rule that I haven't learned yet?  I remember Herron getting called for stalling for having the foot pinned against the butt and it was call with a few seconds left.  I guess there are others who don't know about this rule besides Andrew Dennison. Rule book is clear on the matter, and I saw that JackFlash posted it word for word from both books.  I am missing where is says-just never ever do it in a state championship match and all others its ok to call?

-Andrew Dennison

[385 109]

7 hours ago, gameface said:

Add another state champ from Campbell County 2022, Jonah Bowers and Brayden Brown is at Legacy in Ohio. That’s at least 12-13 state titles in that bracket. 

I coached Jude in probably 4 matches against Cole before Cole was in high school. Cole was so tricky and technical. Back then Jude looked like a newborn pony, all length. He was able to get in on shots but Cole was so funky even in elementary school and usually able to defend. We never were able to get a win over Cole.

[gameface 253]

53 minutes ago, 385 said:

I coached Jude in probably 4 matches against Cole before Cole was in high school. Cole was so tricky and technical. Back then Jude looked like a newborn pony, all length. He was able to get in on shots but Cole was so funky even in elementary school and usually able to defend. We never were able to get a win over Cole.

Lol “Newborn Pony”. Jude just hadn’t grown in to his body yet. Seeing his brothers you just knew it was a matter of time he’d be a monster!!! Jude was always a great kid and competitor. And the signature Pink Head Gear was awesome!! Thank you for the kind words about Cole. It’s been fun being his Dad/Coach. He’s  been blessed to wrestle so many great kids in Kentucky that are now all State Champions!

[grappler-of-old 44]

5 hours ago, OhioWrestler&Reff68 said:

So Scotty, we now have to pick and choose when to call stalling or any other calls and forgo the rule book?  In all my years and all the places that I've officiated I've never heard of this "unwritten rule".  Is it a KY rule that I haven't learned yet?  I remember Herron getting called for stalling for having the foot pinned against the butt and it was call with a few seconds left.  I guess there are others who don't know about this rule besides Andrew Dennison. Rule book is clear on the matter, and I saw that JackFlash posted it word for word from both books.  I am missing where is says-just never ever do it in a state championship match and all others its ok to call?

-Andrew Dennison

I for one believe the call at HWT this year was correct call.  Not trying to bring up old grudges, but the foot being pinned to the but was argumentative because the foot had been held there for more like 15 seconds.  It its called in the 1st 5 seconds there would have been time left on the clock.  When called with 3 seconds left it makes it impossible to score where 13 seconds at least gives a small chance.  Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Now if claimed not seen at first.  It should have been known that it was not put there in the 10 seconds prior to the call therefore it had to be there for a long time.  Now I don't remember if you were the one officiating that match and I have never had a problem with any of the calls that you have made on matches I have been involved with.  Everyone makes a mistake but when one is made criticism  should be expected. 

[bestmistake33 28]

23 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I for one believe the call at HWT this year was correct call.  Not trying to bring up old grudges, but the foot being pinned to the but was argumentative because the foot had been held there for more like 15 seconds.  It its called in the 1st 5 seconds there would have been time left on the clock.  When called with 3 seconds left it makes it impossible to score where 13 seconds at least gives a small chance.  Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Now if claimed not seen at first.  It should have been known that it was not put there in the 10 seconds prior to the call therefore it had to be there for a long time.  Now I don't remember if you were the one officiating that match and I have never had a problem with any of the calls that you have made on matches I have been involved with.  Everyone makes a mistake but when one is made criticism  should be expected. 

With the pinned heel, If I remember correctly didn’t his assistant have to point it out to him?  How can you be so far out of position to miss that call?  5 seconds difference could have been a huge difference. 

[GentleBeard 145]

9 hours ago, Wrestling247365 said:

Norms??? I am just stating what the rule book says. People that dont know the rules hear coaches and other fans yell "5 seconds" and assume that's a rule so they start getting loud about it as well.  

If your interested, we can always use more officials on the mats. Please feel free to fill out information below and get updates on when the new licensing opens, the training opportunities, and clinic. 

https://www.jotform.com/230434326549052

Couldn’t find the requirement in the rule book where the top wrestler must “hop sides” to avoid stalling, yet we all know if a wrestler rides on one side for too long, a stall call is coming. Yes, there are norms and “unwritten” rules. When a state title is on the line, the “unwritten rules” are that wrestlers will decide the match, even if it goes to UTB. In the Heavyweight snoozefest, I wonder what technique the ref would coach that kid to avoid stalling at the end, specifically. The kid never backed out of bounds, and was attempting to circle out of an under hook, if my memory serves me right.

[Wrestling247365 1]

7 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

Couldn’t find the requirement in the rule book where the top wrestler must “hop sides” to avoid stalling, yet we all know if a wrestler rides on one side for too long, a stall call is coming. Yes, there are norms and “unwritten” rules. When a state title is on the line, the “unwritten rules” are that wrestlers will decide the match, even if it goes to UTB. In the Heavyweight snoozefest, I wonder what technique the ref would coach that kid to avoid stalling at the end, specifically. The kid never backed out of bounds, and was attempting to circle out of an under hook, if my memory serves me right.

It's because the time requirement is not in the book on bringing a wrestler back to the mat.

So should a stall call in the heavy weight finals match happen in regular season but not in the state finals? Just being devils advocate here. People ask for it to be called the same way all season, but when the call is made in the finals match, it shouldn't be called because it's the state finals? I have seen Dennison make that same call all season long, in December, January, and state finals. Thankfully the officials that were working this weekend have all been there before and have called high level matches all season long. 

[El Pollo Loco 20]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:09 AM, coachteater said:

I felt the same way and several around me felt the same way. 

I also feel regardless of if was technically the right call (everyone will argue if yes or no) there is an "unwritten rule" that you just do not make that call, in that situation. Am I wrong?

Thats the kind of call thats talked about 20 years in a negative way regardless of if it was right or wrong.I can think of at least one like this that still get talked about frequently and it was 25 years ago. 

Ive always said this and most agree, the best officials are the ones that will not decide a tight match. 

 

The ref not making the right call at the right time and forcing overtime is %100 the referee interjecting themselves into the match. 

I agree it's unfortunate, but the best referees don't decide the match they enforce the rules irregardless. 

 

[halfhalfhalf 121]

1 hour ago, Wrestling247365 said:

It's because the time requirement is not in the book on bringing a wrestler back to the mat.

So should a stall call in the heavy weight finals match happen in regular season but not in the state finals? Just being devils advocate here. People ask for it to be called the same way all season, but when the call is made in the finals match, it shouldn't be called because it's the state finals? I have seen Dennison make that same call all season long, in December, January, and state finals. Thankfully the officials that were working this weekend have all been there before and have called high level matches all season long. 

Just because they've all been there before and have called high level matches is subjective. Especially when the calls are hit and miss at best for a few.  I have kept quiet publicly on this but those who I respect and talk too on issues I have said this too. What needs to occur/brought back is an evaluation process of officials similar to how it was when I first came to KY and the senior officials who are out/getting out to be out evaluating and mentoring young officials. 

You want to increase the number of referees?? Then teams with a big coaching staff quit hoarding coaches and send one to get ref certified. It's okay to miss one when you have 7-10 coaches on staff. There are currently 4 teams out of 122 that have VARSITY coaches who have reffed this season to include 2 of the 4 reffing in a tournament their team is in. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wwrestling121 0]

On 2/26/2023 at 6:56 PM, El cucuy said:

I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

I completely disagree. I think that Meyer wrestled a smart match and shut Raney down. I think Raney was feeling the pressure too after watching him come off the mat looking upset. Raney won from Meyer locking hands and getting the extra point. the best wrestlers on the high school and national level have close matches like we saw with Raney and Meyer. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Time to change gears a little bit. 

Here are the stats on State. 

Semi Stat in Order

Placers----------------Finalists--------------Champs--------------Team points

SS1----56               SS1----17               SS1----11               SS2----799

SS2----56               SS2----11               SS2----3                 SS1----773

Region in order

Placers---------------Finalists----------Champs-------Team Points

R1----22                 R1----8              R1----6            R1----392

R5----21                 R3----6              R3----3            R5----278

R3----18                 R4----4              R2----2            R3----266

R6----14                 R5----3              R5----2            R6----229.5

R7----13                 R2----2              R7----1            R7----159.5

R4----9                   R7----2              R4----0            R8----131

R8----8                   R8----2              R6----0            R4----120.5

R2----7                   R4----1              R8----0            R2----115

[Ranger123 43]

5 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Time to change gears a little bit. 

Here are the stats on State. 

Semi Stat in Order

Placers----------------Finalists--------------Champs--------------Team points

SS1----56               SS1----17               SS1----11               SS2----799

SS2----56               SS2----11               SS2----2                 SS1----773

Region in order

Placers---------------Finalists----------Champs-------Team Points

R1----22                 R1----8              R1----6            R1----392

R5----21                 R3----6              R3----3            R5----278

R3----18                 R4----4              R2----2            R3----266

R6----14                 R5----3              R5----2            R6----229.5

R7----13                 R2----2              R7----1            R7----159.5

R4----9                   R7----2              R4----0            R8----131

R8----8                   R8----2              R6----0            R4----120.5

R2----7                   R4----1              R8----0            R2----115

Good stuff there GOO.  Sort of surprised at the balance between semi-states, but with only a 16 man bracket (8-8 split) it almost forces a certain level of balance.  I think the finalist and champ numbers confirm SS1 was clearly stronger at the top this year.  And region 1 is TOUGH right now.