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Post State Thoughts

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Just wanted to say congrats to all, and I feel like officials, coaches, etc. really did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. Having state finals in a high school gym is unforgivable, but those who could give effort for these kids did so.

Is Paducah Tilghman on track to start a new mini dynasty? 4 state champions. That is Union County numbers. Hats off to them. I overheard their head coach speaking to his team, and other coaches a few times, and he seemed like a very good person.

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Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

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19 minutes ago, BroOfCoach said:

Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

I agree with this 99%. Most exciting finals I have seen in a long time in KY. As far as officiating it's a mess. It's bad for wrestlers and bad for fans and trying to grow the sport. Pretty sure I saw 10 different calls on out of bounds. Zero consistency on what a takedown was. Fraziers takedown in finals was called a takedown in 20 matches before but when a rule book was pulled out showing a takedown It wasn't all of a sudden. I have no dog in the fight so I didn't care either way but I still would like to know what a takedown is.
 

As far as TJ Meyer match if you want to see something really crazy go back and watch the match in the third period. The ref was directly in front of them and Raney would stand up and try and touch hands to the mat to get locked hands call 3-4 times. From my understanding that is unsportsmanlike and 1 point but instead they gave locked hands which is a 2 point swing. It is clear in the video on flo if you would like to go watch for some entertainment! 

As far as the 1% I don't agree with is venue. Does It suck it's at a HS yes but it was done extremely well imo. The issue is the stands were not full for the finals which is pretty embarrassing. Even Union seemed drastically lighter than their normal crowd. I don't see KHSAA pushing for a venue until there is a safety concern. If you want to change venues, sell out the HS so they are forced to. 

All in all the depth seems to be growing and there were a ton of great matches. 

-Nathan Boston

 

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1 hour ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

I agree with this 99%. Most exciting finals I have seen in a long time in KY. As far as officiating it's a mess. It's bad for wrestlers and bad for fans and trying to grow the sport. Pretty sure I saw 10 different calls on out of bounds. Zero consistency on what a takedown was. Fraziers takedown in finals was called a takedown in 20 matches before but when a rule book was pulled out showing a takedown It wasn't all of a sudden. I have no dog in the fight so I didn't care either way but I still would like to know what a takedown is.
 

As far as TJ Meyer match if you want to see something really crazy go back and watch the match in the third period. The ref was directly in front of them and Raney would stand up and try and touch hands to the mat to get locked hands call 3-4 times. From my understanding that is unsportsmanlike and 1 point but instead they gave locked hands which is a 2 point swing. It is clear in the video on flo if you would like to go watch for some entertainment! 

As far as the 1% I don't agree with is venue. Does It suck it's at a HS yes but it was done extremely well imo. The issue is the stands were not full for the finals which is pretty embarrassing. Even Union seemed drastically lighter than their normal crowd. I don't see KHSAA pushing for a venue until there is a safety concern. If you want to change venues, sell out the HS so they are forced to. 

All in all the depth seems to be growing and there were a ton of great matches. 

-Nathan Boston

 

A wrestler mentioned to me that they had once been called for unsportsmanlike conduct for doing the same thing. I was not aware of that rule but it's just another example of poor officiating. It seems they simply do not know some rules. Man, what an upset that would have been!

As far as the venue, I do agree it was ran well. I just don't think it was a good venue until the finals. It was an excellent finals. If the bottom bleachers could be out at all times it would be much better but then we wouldn't have enough room for mats. I do think it will be at a different venue soon. I've heard Alltech again as a contender. :/

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Couple things…

1) if Alltech is back in play (which sounds like it is next year) then the KHSAA can’t complain about money. There are multiple better venues for a fraction of the cost.

2) If a high school gym isn’t packed for the finals, it’s going to look really bad at Alltech.

I’m left with the conclusion that KHSAA is rich and lazy - caring more about their own convenience than properly giving the athletes what they deserve.

 

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Here's a fun post-state thought - found this gem in my phone from Youth Regions, 2017.  Count them - three (3), 2023 State Champs!  (Powell, Herron and Ferree).  That was heck of a bracket! :)  Great job and congrats to 3 great wrestlers and even better kids!  Well done gentlemen.  Thank you for your contributions to KY Wrestling and best of luck on your next adventures!

podium pic.PNG

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I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

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3 hours ago, damonluttrell said:

The year is wrong on the placer plaque’s says 2022

Coaches Association is already having the problem corrected. We did not ope the boxes till at state and immediately saw the mistake,  at that point it was too late. The company is making new plates and will be sent to coaches asap

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18 minutes ago, El cucuy said:

I saw Meyer stall and run for 6 mins. He did everything he could to keep the match close. Well everything but wrestle. Raney was never in any danger in that match. 

I saw a kid that was outmatched giving himself a chance to win. He hit multiple attacks and also stayed in very good position. Did he stall? Maybe some but he got called for It. He definitely didn't stall all 6 minutes. I'm glad he's only a sophomore. Many years of battles left and maybe another national caliber guy in KY!

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9 hours ago, BroOfCoach said:

Some thoughts on the state tournament:

Venue: same issues as before. Great facility but not a good host for an event like the state wrestling tournament. Too crowded. Limited views depending on where you sit. I am thankful they pulled the stands out for the finals. The finals were actually done well. The first day taking place during school is just ridiculous. Just another reason we need this event at an arena.

Wrestling: The current post season format leads to the most competitive state tournament. Not much fluff. Some classes were an absolute battle just to place.  A few classes had very highly ranked wrestlers fail to place or place much lower than their ranking. At least couple of former #1s failed to place. Most of the finals matches were competitive, some a lot closer than expected. Several very exciting ones. 120, 132, 138, 190, 215, and 285 were barn burners. Have to give a shout out to TJ Meyer for making things very interesting in a finals match against Raney that many thought would be a blow out. I also have to mention Uriah Virzi. He was basically left for dead after being penalized for locking hands then giving up a reversal in the final period and then trailing 3-1.  But a reversal and huge lift and pin later, he avenged his two losses via pin to Kizer to become a 2x champ. Overall, I was very satisfied with the wrestling, especially the finals.

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

 

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

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1 hour ago, coachteater said:

Coaches Association is already having the problem corrected. We did not ope the boxes till at state and immediately saw the mistake,  at that point it was too late. The company is making new plates and will be sent to coaches asap

Thanks coach. I appreciate you

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41 minutes ago, JackFlash said:

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

 

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

So you're the ref that made the call!?

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11 hours ago, BroOfCoach said:

Now for the bad part: Officiating. I know it's the same old story. Overall, in most matches, the officiating was not that bad. However, there were some absolutely egregious calls. Text book calls that were blown. Literally text book; the rule is pictured in the rule book. Some of these calls occurred in the finals, unfortunately. The PT coach even pulled the book out in the finals on a call that I thought was clearly incorrect. I knew exactly where he was going in the book because there is a picture of the rule. There were multiple examples of pictured rules being called incorrectly. Then we have examples of refs deciding the match.  A stalling call in the last 10 seconds of a state championship match? I know its not the first time, but come on! It would have been decided in OT. I also saw examples of an assistant official talking the other official into changing his call and the same person, who was not even officiating a particular match, trying to signal to an official to wave off a takedown. That's just unacceptable. We don't have a lot of officials so maybe this just what we have to work with.

Overall, it was a fun weekend with some good wrestling and a NEW team champion. The 7 year streak of Union County is over. Will PT stay on top?

 

Wow I was thinking just the opposite, this makes my 42nd state tournament attended (3 as a wrestler, 4 as a spectator and 35 as a coach).  I thought this was one of the best officiated state tournament that I have been to.  Stalling is always difficult to call, but it seemed universal for all officials this weekend.  Calling stalling in the last 10 seconds of a finals match stinks but when you back up for 10-20 seconds its the call you get.  Remember this would not be the 1st stall call so this wrestler was stalling earlier in the match also. 

As for the assistant ref.  His job is to help the head official make to correct call.  That is what we all want is the correct call made.  If the head official changes the call then good, it was probably a close call where he did not have the exact angle to see the action.  Therefore he takes the assistant officials re-adjustment.  Good for them.  

The particular call you are referring to where the book was taken out.  I also told the person next to me, "He is taking the book out because there is a picture in the book".  When they didn't change the call, I thought Hmm.  They saw something that I couldn't see way up here in the bleachers. 

Now for the coach:  Wow was he severely inappropriate, running into the circle, not signaling the official that he wanted a conference at the table, then yelling the entire time.  Then yelling "That is a takedown" when the final takedown was gotten.  The official was extremely patient with this coach.  I am certain that if one particular official was officiating that match the coach would have been removed.  

Just to make things clear.  

****These ore the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. ***

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3 hours ago, JackFlash said:

I all just love these post year after year.  Its nice to see coaches and fans who have no concept of the rules and how they apply comment as Sunday Morning QB.  Coaches and fans always want stalling calls as long as it not against their kids.  Or officials should only apply the rules when the fans and coaches think that it's appropriate for their enjoyment/entertainment so that it's better for them as spectators. You all must think officials sit in the locker-room prior to the tournaments or finals and draw squares to see which kid to ENFORCE the letter of the rule against and which kids they can look the other way.  Rule 7-6 ART 2... When a referee recognizes stalling occurring at any time and in any position, the offender shall be warned and thereafter violations shall be penalized when stalling recurs.  These provisions require the referee to penalize stalling without hesitation....  I type that again, without hesitation.... Not for your enjoyment or to take the match into overtime.   Let's talk about Coaching, teach your kids to wrestle, not avoid contact, don't back up 30ft when being pressured.  Sounds like this is a coaching issue and not an officiating issue.  Page 85 and page 86 of the NFHS Wrestling and Case Book and Manual.  Wait, what you say, there is a NFHS Case Book and Manual for Wrestling?  I bet there is some good information in there. Section 6; 1.  Stalling must be removed from wrestling.  The responsibility for doing this is shared by COACHES, WRESTLERS and Referees.  The COACH is responsible for TEACHING an aggressive style of wrestling, requiring wrestlers to work for a fall at all times.  The wrestlers shall avoid the use of stalling tactics and make an honest attempt to wrestle aggressively, whether in the top, bottom or natural position.  The referee shall be firm in enforcing the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule and consistently penalize stalling infraction without hesitation.  All three groups must work together to ensure that wrestling is exciting and interesting sport.  Well sounds like the official did his part and the wrestler and coach didn't do their part.  I guess that's just the hand some of these officials are delt with here in KY.  #4, what there is more to this story?  Why yes coach, let's educate you.  #4 page 86; Factors that contribute to stalling are varied. Every effort must be made by both COACHES and REFEREES to discourage such tactics. (Wait, didn't you just read that?) In the neutral position, it is the responsibility of both wrestlers, regardless of the SCORE or TIME remaining, to make every effort to stay within the 10ft circle, to make contact, to maneuver to set up a takedown, and to follow up by attempting a takedown.  Referee should use commands "Contact, Center, Action" when appropriate to communicate that action needs to occur by either wrestler.  A wrestler may circle to set up the takedown, BUT BACKING AWAY from the opponent, avoiding contact or playing the edge of the mat are examples of stalling.   I'm having difficulty finding where it says to ignore stalling and let it be match be considered in OT.  Didn't the aggressor do is part by trying to wrestle aggressively?  Yet the other kid avoided wrestling so we should award him another period?  That's just unacceptable that we don't have good coaches here in KY, maybe that's what we have to work with?

I will NOT even go into the responsibilities of an assistant referees and their use. Sounds like some calls didn't go your way and you're just sniveling because no one else will listen.  4 set of eyes are better than two and multiple angles looking at the results of action are better than two.

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?  How many years do you have on a whistle and at what level and experience.  Just so we know your qualifications other than a Sunday Morning QB.  I was 100 ft away and I couldn't see it all that well to make an unbiased decision myself.

Here is the link to the site so you can get a rule book and case book for next year.  NFHS  

 

Someone else suggested and posted a link to become an official to stop bitching and be part of the solution.  But I suggest you will not and just continue to be a keyboard warrior because you have 20 years of officiating.  You're probably one of the coaches who disappears till fall again and doesn't keep his kids on the mat and travel, so they get better.  You'd be amazed how many KY officials travel to national level events all over the US, many of them do college while the others at the state tournament do some very high-level national tournaments, FARGO, VA Beach the Stampede.  You F-up at these events you don't return.  But hey, you know what's right looks like I guess.         

First off, my interactions/experiences with 95% of the refs this year have been a positive. Mostly human error type calls that we just have to live with - but nothing egregious. I was bummed when I saw they didn’t get their chance to show their improvements from last year. I thought a few deserved it.

However, I remember one official in particular manufacturing conflict with coaches and then blaming coaches for the conflict/friction that didn’t exist until that point. The same official stated he wants input and better communication between refs and coaches, but when coaches voice concerns and questions, he has condescending retorts or they fall on deaf ears. It’s hard to build trust in that environment. What could build trust and accountability might be a year long  evaluation process for officials like other states to ensure the highest quality/consistent refs get the whistle at significant tournaments. There are refs across the state that have good relationships with coaches - regardless how perfect they are at making calls. My issue are those officials who want to maintain friction for no reason, play the blame game, and have an unquenchable thirst for power.
 

Twenty years of experience doing something doesn’t automatically result in higher quality. A lot of people are mediocre at what they do for long periods of time.


Lastly, I’m pretty sure you don’t want to play the experience game with certain coaches. As a competitor and coach, you have to know the rules like the ref. How else can you expect success? There are multiple coaches in this state who have competed AND coached in the tournaments you boasted about officiating. So, I think the pissing contest needs to end and you can stop trying to justify yourself. 

Honest introspection and a desire to be better and make adjustments could assuage some of the inadequacies we all have - not blaming others as the default position. Quality refs, successful coaches and competitors do this consistently over the long term (on top of competing).

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21 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

Wow I was thinking just the opposite, this makes my 42nd state tournament attended (3 as a wrestler, 4 as a spectator and 35 as a coach).  I thought this was one of the best officiated state tournament that I have been to.  Stalling is always difficult to call, but it seemed universal for all officials this weekend.  Calling stalling in the last 10 seconds of a finals match stinks but when you back up for 10-20 seconds its the call you get.  Remember this would not be the 1st stall call so this wrestler was stalling earlier in the match also. 

As for the assistant ref.  His job is to help the head official make to correct call.  That is what we all want is the correct call made.  If the head official changes the call then good, it was probably a close call where he did not have the exact angle to see the action.  Therefore he takes the assistant officials re-adjustment.  Good for them.  

The particular call you are referring to where the book was taken out.  I also told the person next to me, "He is taking the book out because there is a picture in the book".  When they didn't change the call, I thought Hmm.  They saw something that I couldn't see way up here in the bleachers. 

Now for the coach:  Wow was he severely inappropriate, running into the circle, not signaling the official that he wanted a conference at the table, then yelling the entire time.  Then yelling "That is a takedown" when the final takedown was gotten.  The official was extremely patient with this coach.  I am certain that if one particular official was officiating that match the coach would have been removed.  

Just to make things clear.  

****These ore the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  You can take them or leave them, in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter. ***

Nothing but respect for your opinion. No issues there.

As for the officiating, like I said, it wasn't that bad overall.

My problem with the stalling call in the 285 final was I didn't think he was backing up intentionally. In fact, I just re-watched the last part of that match and the St. X wrestler had double under hooks and was pushing the Madison Southern wrestler while he (Madison Southern) was circling the mat. I don't know what else he could have done. Watch it and let me know what you think.

As for the rule book being pulled in the finals, I said the same exact thing as you said to the guy next to you. There was an issue in the CIF finals last year or the year before when the same rule was in question. It was a huge controversy.

 

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Let’s be honest, in a 285 match that is 1-1 after six minutes there was more than two opportunities to call stalling. Calling it with 10 seconds left when a kid is double hooked seems out of whack.  The whole match was one big stall fest. Not questioning that there was stalling but why pick that moment?

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As for the assistant ref, I did not see a single instance where the refs conferred and then changed a call. There were many times I thought they should and would after talking and saw many times where the body language of the assistant ref seemed to suggest that he did not agree, but not once did I see a call changed. Maybe it happened and I just missed it.

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25 minutes ago, BroOfCoach said:

Nothing but respect for your opinion. No issues there.

As for the officiating, like I said, it wasn't that bad overall.

My problem with the stalling call in the 285 final was I didn't think he was backing up intentionally. In fact, I just re-watched the last part of that match and the St. X wrestler had double under hooks and was pushing the Madison Southern wrestler while he (Madison Southern) was circling the mat. I don't know what else he could have done. Watch it and let me know what you think.

As for the rule book being pulled in the finals, I said the same exact thing as you said to the guy next to you. There was an issue in the CIF finals last year or the year before when the same rule was in question. It was a huge controversy.

 

I was watching that in particular match and was rooting for the MS kid.  I and the person next to me both stated that if he didn't do anything offensive after going out of bounds he was going to be called for stalling.  I saw the underhooks in and him being pushed and knew the call was coming.  He didn't clamp down on the underhooks, and it didn't seem that he was trying to slide out of the hooks.  I wanted the overtime but understood the call, I think the call should have come when he went out of bounds prior to the call, which I don't believe would have changed the outcome.  

I absolutely hate when these type of calls decide a match, but there has to be 6 minutes of aggression, if not the call can come at any time.  No two officials will call it exactly the same. As I always told GOO Jr.  push the match so the official can't make the call and you have no control over it.  

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I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

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37 minutes ago, Ol'School ky said:

I saw that match differently than you guys,  I thought the MS kid was definitely the aggressor for most of the match.  St. X kid could have been called for stalling several times but wasnt.  Locking in double unders and pushing out of bounds, i saw that called as a stall on the pusher all weekend.  I felt bad for the MS kid.  Bad way to lose a finals match.  I will say i have seen that official blow alot of matches and has a huge ego problem, when approached by coaches he is dismissive and condescending to them.  Just my opinion.

I would say you are being kind in your judgment of said official. Every interaction I have ever had with him has been negative. Guy acts pissed all the time for no reason.

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4 hours ago, JackFlash said:

Pictures in a book, just because a picture is in a book doesn't mean that is what played out on the mat, one coach is always going to see it is way.  So, two officials looking at the same move and they talk about it, and they call didn't go his way.  I only saw 3 people in that 28ft circle, just where were you sitting again?           

You’re right. My eyes are lying.

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