GL494

Not good KHSAA

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put aside us fellow officials getting bashed i sincerely think most of us did a great job but i also think it was kind of cool to be able to officiate my first state tournament with my father, also my brother first year head coach for owensboro got to coach a kid this year at the state tournament. thought it was pretty cool to see what my father ( 8 time official of the year ) has done with me and my brother to give back to the greatest sport out there. i truly enjoyed this state tournament with great matches all day both days! congratulations to all state champs and placers! F68B9229-12C6-4305-B273-3D1CE120A936.thumb.jpeg.9ef3c41364f2e1c4a97d162ff0c3e7a8.jpeg136BBB5B-066A-46E2-8A28-6B8977807B16.thumb.jpeg.b49f9e2352ddaba572084f747be502f0.jpeg

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Absolutely. I don’t want to bash any ref. Maybe one or two lol. But you and your dad are class acts. Your dad is one of my favorites and is good for the sport. I didn’t realize that was your dad till this weekend. Congrats to you. a very special moment. And a side note I though you did a great job. 

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3 minutes ago, MLee said:

 

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I assume that is the situation Nathan B. referenced. If not, I’m sure he’ll correct me. If it is, I don’t see how that situation and the one we’re referencing are remotely similar.

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11 minutes ago, MLee said:

I admit, I didn’t read the rules until after Nathan B. addressed it. After reading it, I’m still unclear. The rule book uses a specific situation where the top wrestler “grasps the far ankle and brings to the buttocks in attempting to break down the opponent.”  I assume in a tight waste/far ankle breakdown then hold the ankle to the butt after bottom wresler is broken down.

I think we all agree, that didn’t happen. At no time did I see top grasp the ankle and bring to bottom’s butt. The ankle got trapped as the top wrestler worked up the body for wrist control. It wouldn’t surprise me if top wrestler didn’t even know it was trapped. 

You don't think a 2 time state champ who was 52-0 on the year and considered one of the pound for pound best in the state by a good bit of people could feel the ankle trapped? I don't know who you are, or your level of wrestling but you 100% can feel if a leg is trapped there. 
 

I don't have the rule book with me at my house but this is from a ref breaking down the rules in an article all about stalling. 

"b. legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds"

this is the last I am going to say on this match since I'm the only one using facts with my opinion. Kentucky does have a bad ref problem. The report card idea sounds awesome!

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2 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

You don't think a 2 time state champ who was 52-0 on the year and considered one of the pound for pound best in the state by a good bit of people could feel the ankle trapped? I don't know who you are, or your level of wrestling but you 100% can feel if a leg is trapped there. 
 

I don't have the rule book with me at my house but this is from a ref breaking down the rules in an article all about stalling. 

"b. legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds"

this is the last I am going to say on this match since I'm the only one using facts with my opinion. Kentucky does have a bad ref problem. The report card idea sounds awesome!

The above would be correct. I didn't see your screenshot of the rule until after my post. However It doesn't need to be from a breakdown. The fact that you don't see how those would go together absolutely blows my mind. Good luck to whoever your team is next year!

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I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m saying I would rather seen it taken to ot. I think Ferree still wins. He was doing a fantastic job. However this isn’t that cut and dry and is some area for interpretation. At 13 seconds it looks like Herron raises up off the ankle and ferree didn’t attempt to move his ankle down. I don’t know I’m not him. But I do think Herron pushes the lines a lot in his matches and maybe this is just an example of it catching up to him. 

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27 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

The above would be correct. I didn't see your screenshot of the rule until after my post. However It doesn't need to be from a breakdown. The fact that you don't see how those would go together absolutely blows my mind. Good luck to whoever your team is nex

Who determined it doesn’t need to be from a breakdown? The situations in the rule book are very specific by design..so they’re not misinterpreted. For instance, stalling is different when your a top vs a bottom wrestler. It’s different in OT than during regulation. It’s different when you’re on the line vs being in the center of the mat.

My point is, you shouldn’t use 2 different scenarios and say the rules should be applied the same. How that ankle got trapped to his butt is ENTIRELY different than the situation in the rule book you referenced. 


 

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I think you can make a case that both N Boston and M Lee are right.  You may think the refs may have made what they interpret is the right call based on their interpretation of that particular rule. However, you can also think the refs misinterpreted the rule and shouldn't have called it. 

To me that's a bad call for a couple of reasons.  First, even the rule Nathan Boston is referencing to justify the call is open to subjectivity.  It doesn't appear at all that the top wrestler "grasps the heel".  The heel ended up pinned against the butt from a scramble, not by the top wrestler "grasping" it.  Also, the intent of any stalling rule should be to simply promote action and to punish those who aren't actively trying to better their position.  From the video, it appears the top wrestler is actively wrestling and the bottom wrestler appears to be doing little to get out at the time the call was made. 

Even if you believe the rule is clearly defined, which in this case I would argue it is not based on the aforementioned point, the ref still has the choice to call it or not.  No one wants to see a state title determined by the refs unless it is clearly obvious.  I doubt anyone would have been upset if they just let them go to overtime.  

One of my best friends growing up, Tom Storms, was a 2 time defending state champ and got stalled out in the finals his senior year.  As much as I hated it for him, he was clearly stalling/backing up after being warned many times prior.   Its hard to tell from this video, but it doesn't appear the refs gave any warning prior to making the call.  Had that happened, I might feel a little different.  

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A friend of mine in Western KY was at the tournament and asked me to jump on here and provide my two cents on the two matches being discussed.  I've been an official in West Virginia and Virginia for the last 14 years.  For the last 4 years, I've been an evaluator of other officials in my area (only in VA not WV).  I'm by no means the NFHS, but I do know a great bit when it comes to NFHS Wrestling Rules.  What I hope to do below is give a clean and clear view of how would I would evaluate each man specifically related to the rule book.

Couple of disclaimers before I give my critique of each match:

  • I know a couple of KY refs but use to know a lot more.
  • I do not know either of the head officials in question in these matches.
  • I have no vested or rooting interest in these matches.
  • I watched on Flo and wasn't there in person.
  • I absolutely do not want to get involved with the overall state of "quality" of officials
  • I absolutely do not want to get into the should have let it settle in OT.

138 pound conso 2nd round:

General observations:

  • Head official seemed to have good positioning and was moving around the mat well.
  • Was quick to be in position to see things.
  • Made good on the line calls.
  • Did not effectively utilize assistant official (this is an issue in WV and VA too)

Scoring observations:

  • I thought the first stalling warning on red shouldn't have been called.  Red was up 4-2 and had shown that he was the aggressor by securing 2 takedowns to that point
  • Second stalling call (resulting in one point penalty) was a little quick, but I don't have that much of an issue here.  Stalling Is subjective in these situations
  • The third (resulting in one point penalty) and fourth (resulting in two point penalty) stalling calls were there and the right call.

 

  • At this point there was misapplication of rule.  In the 2022 NFHS Wrestling Rule book, when the 2pt (fourth) stalling call is made, match shall be stopped and the opponent will have choice of position on restart.
    • I saw the head official direct the green wrestler that he was down after stoppage, but I did not see where he asked/informed green that it was his choice of position.  Nor did I see the official direct the scorers table that the wrestler chose down.  Assuming that they were using track for scoring, track would have automatically prompted for position choice.  The scorer likely saw that green was down so he clicked down to keep moving.
    • Again - watching on flow.  Maybe he did ask and maybe green did say down - but the signs don't point to that.
  • The match restarts and the fifth (DQ stalling call) was borderline.  He was circling and backing up.  He wasn't going directly backwards.  I personally would not have made this call, but also don't hate the call.
  • As soon as the fifth stalling is called the match is terminated. 
  • Had the red wrestler remained on the mat and the red coach approached and called out the misapplication of the rule, bad time would have been re-wrestled starting at the 21 second mark.  Any points, penalties, or injury time that occurred during bad time would be voided.  Choice would be given, recorded, and wrestling would begin.  Bad time can be called to re-wrestle as long as the offended wrestler and/or coach remains on/in the mat area and requests the bad time.  I did not see that request made.
  • While I do not think that red coaches realized that DQ for stalling was a thing, I certainly think the strategy would have changed if bad time was re-wrestled as it should have been.

157 pound finals match

General observations:

  • Head official moved around the mat well but would have liked him to be back a bit more to be able to survey all of the action.  Sometimes the bigger the wrestlers the easier it is to see further away than up close.
  • Good utilization of assistant on the first takedown.  My assumption is he wanted to confer with assistant on whether the period ended before takedown was secured but that's just a guess.
  • Missed headgear throw at conclusion of match.

Scoring observations:

  • Takedown at end of first was a good takedown.  I would have awarded points first then conferred with my assistant to confirm my call with timing rather than wait and award later.  This is being super critical and there isn't really anything clearly defined in the rulebook for this situation.
  • Good on the line reversal call in period 2.  Those are hard to see supporting points when guys are moving that fast.
  • Stalling warning on red in period 2 was good and clean. 
    • Although rule book doesn't explicitly state 5 seconds for a mat return, it is generally and widely accepted that 5 seconds is the timing for a mat return stalling call.  I had anywhere from 5-7 seconds depending on when you start your count.  Ok call in my book.
  • Probably should have hit green for stalling towards the end of period 2.  Action wasn't forward by green.
  • Good "let it burn" for takedown by red in third period.  Some guys would have hit stalemate before that action finished.
  • Could have been stalling on red at 30 second mark for dragging opponent out of bounds on his feet.  Ok with no call there.
  • After scramble completes at 20 seconds left in the third, red has greens heel to the buttock while the defensive wrestler is broken down for 10 seconds (18 second mark to 8 second mark).  Good stall call and by the book.
    • Rule 5-24 Art 4-B - It is stalling when the contestant in the advantage position legally holds the hell to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for more than five seconds.
    • Conversation with red coach at the table seemed strange.  At one point head official looks at green corner.  Not sure what was going on there.
  • Green probably should have been hit for stalling a little sooner out of neutral, but I don't think it was going to be called twice in 8 seconds here.
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How could the 150 match get stalled out, when this match had 1 stall point awarded when the bottom wrestler stayed in a ball and on his knees for the entire 3rd period? Also the merkle in the 1st period was not awarded a takedown. This was in the 215 quarterfinals. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7334418-2022-khsaa-ky-state-championships/videos?playing=7503476&limit=60

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8 minutes ago, Rocko240b said:

Ok Tbag, what are you saying about the the match.

Pretty simple missed takedown in 1st is a 4 point swing. One stall point is unacceptable when a kid doesn't do anything to advance his position to score for a whole period. When other matches are decided by stall calls, why the inconsistencies? Am I bitter? Yes. Am I slightly biased? Yes. The matches should be decided by wrestlers wrestling, not wrestlers laying still on a mat for 2 minutes. 

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Only thing pretty simple is you humble brag on these forums all year, then make excuses when you lose.

8 minutes ago, Tbagnky said:

Pretty simple missed takedown in 1st is a 4 point swing. One stall point is unacceptable when a kid doesn't do anything to advance his position to score for a whole period. When other matches are decided by stall calls, why the inconsistencies? Am I bitter? Yes. Am I slightly biased? Yes. The matches should be decided by wrestlers wrestling, not wrestlers laying still on a mat for 2 

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This thread was about inconsistent refereeing. I just pointed out another example. No excuses. As far as "humble bragging" goes, everything I have said on this forum was genuine. I am proud of my sons and all they have accomplished in this sport. I didn't lose anything. I have won many friends and extended family from their time competing on the mat.. You should be proud of Rocky as well. He did what he had to do to win and did so at a high level. Congratulations to him!

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Look I will tell you all right now.... If you guys want to give reffing a try I promise you will get humbled pretty quickly. You may "know" the rule book but I can promise you that you don't know every detail to every situation. I have 22 years of experience in this sport and learned very quickly toss it out the window. It is totally different in the heat of the moment. Did I get ripped some yes, I did. Did I miss calls, yes I did. Did I have a few bad calls, yes I did. But that's all apart of it. No one will make every call correctly. We strive too, but the potential for human error is there. That's apart of it. Will we still rip officials? Probably so, that goes on for years. But until Elon Musk develops a robotic referee why not try to help eliminate the issues and be apart of a solution. 

Talking behind the keyboard is one thing... Actually doing it is another. I can tell you that officials are needed! Instead of complaining about it, get online next fall and sign up. I know they will appreciate the extra help. It will save some from driving 4 hours to a tourney and going back. 

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6 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

What are the qualifications to be a ref in Kentucky?

https://khsaa.org/new_application/

 

Your books will be mailed to  you.  Pass the test when it opens and your licensed.  Next step is joining the KWOA and being assigned to your local association as well as having a mentor assigned to you.  KWOA has a training tournament in the fall, winter and spring for new officials.

The above link is only to officiate high school with the KHSAA.  High school wrestlers are encouraged to officiate youth events to get additional mat time.

 

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I will split the difference on the ref topic. 
 

One side we have some great officials in Ky. And like has been mentioned they all make mistakes but we also make many mistakes as coaches. We have to separate a call we don’t like with thinking someone is a bad official. The best example I can think of and I’ve said this multiple times. Jason Sedoris called the state finals match with Spencer v Thomas. While I disagreed with the call on the last second sequence that did not change my opinion of Jason being one of the best officials in the state. I would be perfectly happy to have him officiate any state finals matches for any of my kids. 
 

But on the other side we have to create a better evaluation system because some guys have no business being there. And there has to be a process where we can pivot in the moment and give guys a break if they are having a bad day. 

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1 hour ago, Ranger123 said:

I will split the difference on the ref topic. 
 

One side we have some great officials in Ky. And like has been mentioned they all make mistakes but we also make many mistakes as coaches. We have to separate a call we don’t like with thinking someone is a bad official. The best example I can think of and I’ve said this multiple times. Jason Sedoris called the state finals match with Spencer v Thomas. While I disagreed with the call on the last second sequence that did not change my opinion of Jason being one of the best officials in the state. I would be perfectly happy to have him officiate any state finals matches for any of my kids. 
 

But on the other side we have to create a better evaluation system because some guys have no business being there. And there has to be a process where we can pivot in the moment and give guys a break if they are having a bad day. 

I do agree we need some sort of eval system but that's a good way to get things going forward but if you take out some of the guys who have no business in the game then some areas of the state have 1-2 refs to cover 1 entire region.

 

Someone I suggest, is more assistant coaches or lay coaches get their certification. I know we did it and will continue to pay for our coaches to get certified moving forward. For us to get to a better situation why not some of the teams with 8 coaches get them certified to help with the problems. 

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I will also add that most of the guys on the floor this weekend are very good officials that deserved to be there. Doesn’t mean they were perfect or I didn’t disagree with a call or two. But we have good officials. We just need to support them and get the right guys there. 

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I will agree with Ranger on the above. The one person that I will say I saw improve throughout the year a TON was Blake. We got into (looking back) a hilarious exchange at a dual over a call that I didn't agree with. He then took a team point which looking back was almost worth the joking comment I made. The one thing he did do great at state was always moving to be in position. I think that is one big area of concern overall with refs. Also in about 5 different matches I saw the same young ref call "two takedown" after guys sat in a position that DID NOT CHANGE for about 20 seconds. I would call the guy out by name if I knew it because I think being straight forward is the only way to ever improve. 

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Does anybody know how the team points work now ? Are the advancement points  worth the same amount as the 32 Man brackets were ? Union score of 200 plus would be even more impressive with less matches than years past 

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