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I've been perusing through the state results on track recently and it got me thinking. How about doubling the number of regions to 16 while also balancing out the teams for each. If my math is right, then there should be no more than 8 teams per region. Considering participation rates also, all regions would be able to compete in just one day. Seed the top 4 and advance the finalists to semi-state. At semi-state, seed the region champs and advance the finalists to state. A true 2nd match could be included for these tournaments but I wouldn't miss it. I like the three step approach the KHSAA went with this year but could use some tinkering with.

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I'm not following. Are you combining 2 regions to make a semi-state? if only taking top two then that makes it a 4 man bracket, with a 16 man state tourney.  If combining 4 regions that makes 4 semi states (8 man bracket) then an 8 man state tourney.  

I for one absolutely hate the 8 man state tourney. Takes the fan-fare out of the state tourney, and would probably keep us holding it at a High School gym. 

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I would be willing to compromise back to the old way.  District tourney top 4 go to region. two districts make a region, top 4 go to state. 16 man state tourney.  But Districts have got to be changed to make this happen.  Look at last 5 year participants for each school and make districts more equal. Louisville no longer needs 2 districts/regions.

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I’m with you GOO, I wouldn’t be opposed to the old school district/region/16 man state with some realignment. But it’s amazing how good our “normal” 32 man bracket looks when faced with the mess we just had. 

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Yes the 32 man looked really good compared to what we got this season.  And I was one that was against the 32 man bracket when we implemented it. 

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2 hours ago, plantmanky1 said:

Districts, 8 teams in a district, teams can enter 2 per weight class at districts.

 

That would go contrary to having an 8 team district.  Now your back to a 2 day tourney, and put the final nail in the coffin of the small teams. I think the only way to do this is when KY gets enough teams to have 2 divisions (small and large)

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I think you will see most regions now a 1 day anyways with the 6 match limit in post season. As for future it would help if some regions didn't have 20 teams and some 8 but what would also help is true numbers. There are lots of schools listed as in a region that haven't never had a team or no longer has a team. We need to clean up the list of real teams that actually wrestle then make the number in each region close to same. This should make all 1-day tourneys now with the 6 match rule. Then we can do whatever all want district/region/state or just region/state. I personally like the 32 man bracket but never liked the random draw until this season because after seeing the genius way it was seeded I think we are better with random draw. Just my thoughts good or bad.

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4 hours ago, panthers said:

. I personally like the 32 man bracket but never liked the random draw until this season because after seeing the genius way it was seeded I think we are better with random draw. Just my thoughts good or bad.

This was always my argument against seeding. Who and how will it be done, Random draw is not good but it is fair. 

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32 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

This was always my argument against seeding. Who and how will it be done, Random draw is not good but it is fair. 

 

33 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

This was always my argument against seeding. Who and how will it be done, Random draw is not good but it is fair. 

It could have been a little better, but overall it was way better than random draw. No question. 

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On 5/27/2021 at 2:51 PM, grappler-of-old said:

This was always my argument against seeding. Who and how will it be done, Random draw is not good but it is fair. 

Doesn’t track have all the criteria? Head to head, common opponents, win margins, etc? I feel like that could help mitigate some of the human error regarding seeding. All the region champs could be seeded 1-8 then fill in the rest? Or maybe just seed 1-8 (or all 32) based on the criteria in track, regardless of region placement? How does the NCAA determine seeding? 

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58 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Doesn’t track have all the criteria? Head to head, common opponents, win margins, etc? I feel like that could help mitigate some of the human error regarding seeding. All the region champs could be seeded 1-8 then fill in the rest? Or maybe just seed 1-8 (or all 32) based on the criteria in track, regardless of region placement? How does the NCAA determine seeding? 

The only problem with using track is that until Mike Barron and the KHSAA actually hold coaches feet to the fire as they threaten to do in the past. And actually require all coaches to imput their results in a timely manner then Track Seeding will be useless.

Really we do not even have to look to the NCAA, we can just look to Tennessee. They seed their state tournament. Why couldn't we use the same criteria. 

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13 hours ago, naplesme said:

The only problem with using track is that until Mike Barron and the KHSAA actually hold coaches feet to the fire as they threaten to do in the past. And actually require all coaches to imput their results in a timely manner then Track Seeding will be useless.

Really we do not even have to look to the NCAA, we can just look to Tennessee. They seed their state tournament. Why couldn't we use the same criteria. 

What would be the issue using information that exists in track? If a kid doesn’t get the seed they should, and end up with a tough draw at state, would that encourage coaches to log information in a timely manner? Or, is there a way they could fudge the system? 

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The real problem is out of state competition.  All states do not use track, so it will never be like the NCAA. NCAA has a knowledgeable committee. We do have Ranger, but he can't see all (sorry Ranger) and KHSAA does not listen to him anyway. 

Tennessee uses the previous year to seed. (1. Must be a regional champ, 2. must have placer in high school career) Is this better than what we have? Don't know, I personally would rather get a bad draw because of randomness than a technicality (did not place the year before)

Assuming a really good criteria is offered.  If a few teams refuse to record and it screws up the seeding then it is still not correct. Solves nothing.  

Honestly whatever we use is ok with me.  If you want teams to record then don't allow them to print out a weigh in sheet until they do. If a kid weighs in then he can't be on the next weigh in sheet until matches are recorded.  If he did not wrestle that day then a DNP would be recorded.  Other coaches can see it and determine if it is correct just like a dual. 

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6 hours ago, GentleBeard said:

What would be the issue using information that exists in track? If a kid doesn’t get the seed they should, and end up with a tough draw at state, would that encourage coaches to log information in a timely manner? Or, is there a way they could fudge the system?

Which sounds great until a state champion goes unseeded and then blows up your seeding. I don't know the best answer, but I do know that almost every state that surrounds us figures out how to seed the state tournament and doesn't use a random draw. Our supposed goals is to insure the best 3 or 4 get to the Semi's and the finals. There will always be someone who blows up a bracket and wrestles out of his mind, but why do we continue to allow State Championship matches to occur in the quarters rather than where they are supposed to take place? Yes use track, but force/require coaches to imput results weekly. Then is we see a clear and obvious mistake: i.e. Region 1 Semi-State, 106, 145, 220 as examples, then fix them and roll on.

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I don’t think there is a perfect solution to seeding.  Use track and hope the state uses common sense with a little coach input. I know with the schedule Ryle has next year we will have some very good wrestlers with 10-12 losses and they will be bracket busters.  We will spend most of our season in Ohio and Indiana challenging a lot of their states top teams.  

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19 minutes ago, CUTiger184 said:

I think as long as we have coaches input while utilizing track everything should be seeded accordingly. 

Hence the problem. KHSAA worked independently, and not with the help of the coaches.  Which is why we had kids with records of 6-3, 8-1, 7-1, 5-3, 6-5, and 7-3 instead of 27-4, 27-1, 24-1. 26-5, 22-7 and 31-2 listed at the state tourney. 

Now I am not 100% sure this was not addressed but it still remained on the KHSAA website (brackets) as such. I am pretty sure that coaches were not asked for their input on the seeding or accuracy of the information. 

I know this was a trial year and hope that moving forward the KHSAA will get more input when the state tourney comes around and the seeding is being done. 

The one thing I do not want to see is two kids from the same region wrestling in the 1st round or even second round.  I like the idea of maybe seeding the regional champs and then putting the remaining kids in the region in quadrants. 

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On 6/15/2021 at 6:04 PM, naplesme said:

Which sounds great until a state champion goes unseeded and then blows up your seeding.

 

On 6/15/2021 at 11:41 AM, grappler-of-old said:

Tennessee uses the previous year to seed. (1. Must be a regional champ, 2. must have placer in high school career) Is this better than what we have? Don't know, I personally would rather get a bad draw because of randomness than a technicality (did not place the year before)

Jayden Raney who will be in 8th grade is screwed by past criteria. Almost certain to be at 106 this year, was not on the varsity team due to his size and no lower weight class. He won't have previous regional champ or placement, but assuredly will be one of the top, if not the top kid at 106. Union will be in Ryle's position if it is a normal season, wrestling out of state for almost the entire season. So this kid might go into regions with a few losses to out of state kids and end up with a 3 or 4 seed at regionals due to past criteria and his record. 

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4 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

 

Jayden Raney who will be in 8th grade is screwed by past criteria. Almost certain to be at 106 this year, was not on the varsity team due to his size and no lower weight class. He won't have previous regional champ or placement, but assuredly will be one of the top, if not the top kid at 106. Union will be in Ryle's position if it is a normal season, wrestling out of state for almost the entire season. So this kid might go into regions with a few losses to out of state kids and end up with a 3 or 4 seed at regionals due to past criteria and his record. 

Would you say the primary issue is not having common sense/knowledgeable seeding meeting or not properly imputing data in track?

We traveled in the off-season quite a bit last year, and I had a strong inclination  who would be bracket busters based on what I saw at some national tournaments (too bad I’m not a betting man haha).  I feel like the primary issue is common sense in the seeding meetings - not diminishing the value criteria in track can provide. But, when a Bryce Sheffer vs Trent Johnson match happens on a Friday afternoon in the quarters, I think adjustments need to be made. At the very least, we need to figure out how to prevent that from happening in the future, IMO.

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1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

Would you say the primary issue is not having common sense/knowledgeable seeding meeting or not properly imputing data in track?

We traveled in the off-season quite a bit last year, and I had a strong inclination  who would be bracket busters based on what I saw at some national tournaments (too bad I’m not a betting man haha).  I feel like the primary issue is common sense in the seeding meetings - not diminishing the value criteria in track can provide. But, when a Bryce Sheffer vs Trent Johnson match happens on a Friday afternoon in the quarters, I think adjustments need to be made. At the very least, we need to figure out how to prevent that from happening in the future, IMO.

I can agree with this.  Seems like KHSAA dove blindly head first into the seeding.  IMO if we only seed the regional champ and fill in as normal. IE.. The runner up of the first seeded wrestler is set on the other side of the bracket then the third and fourth place finisher of that region set in separate quadrants.

This should theoretically separate the top 2. It's simple and easy. 

I'm all for the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid). 

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Hey we got GOO on our side!!!!  A nice simple solution. Seed region champs and let the others fall in based on region placement. 

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8 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

Hey we got GOO on our side!!!!  A nice simple solution. Seed region champs and let the others fall in based on region placement. 

But please keep the coaches involved.  Tuesday send the seeds to the regional reps to look over.  The regional reps can get input from the region coaches involved and send petition for change by end of day on Wed. Final seeding on Thursday, wrestle on Friday. 

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