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coachteater

State seeding and match length

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Stupid question: wrestler A beats wrestler B. Wrestler B beats wrester C. Wrestler C beats wrestler A. All during the season. The head to head is tied. Do they move to next criteria between the 3 or just compare the AB AC BC individually and add the two criteria together?

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It takes into consideration other common opponents. So, if those three wrestlers are tied, the computer looks at commons and criteria points are awarded. Next step, would be criteria set up by the tourney like winning percentage or state placement.

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46 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

It takes into consideration other common opponents. So, if those three wrestlers are tied, the computer looks at commons and criteria points are awarded. Next step, would be criteria set up by the tourney like winning percentage or state placement.

I don’t think it works like that the way the khsaa has it set up. They are comparing each wrestler to every other wrestler in the bracket.
 

So in the scenario wrestlers a, b, and c each would get one seeding point for their head to head victory. If you had an 8 man bracket and each of those 3 wrestlers got the seeding points over the other 5 wrestlers you would have three way tie for the top seed. 
 

the khsaa should set out criteria for what to do if there are ties for the seeding points. Would it default back to the criteria they set, but only looking at the wrestlers in the tie?

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3 hours ago, CoachBauer said:

I don’t think it works like that the way the khsaa has it set up. They are comparing each wrestler to every other wrestler in the bracket.
 

So in the scenario wrestlers a, b, and c each would get one seeding point for their head to head victory. If you had an 8 man bracket and each of those 3 wrestlers got the seeding points over the other 5 wrestlers you would have three way tie for the top seed. 
 

the khsaa should set out criteria for what to do if there are ties for the seeding points. Would it default back to the criteria they set, but only looking at the wrestlers in the tie?

The common opponents would be the kids in the region they just wrestled. The criteria has already been established by the state.

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18 minutes ago, 119Rider said:

The common opponents would be the kids in the region they just wrestled. The criteria has already been established by the state.

I believe he is saying what if 3 wrestlers all end up with 6 points based on the criteria.   And end in a tie.   Then what?   Wrestler A wins criteria point over wrestler B.   Wrestler B holds criteria point over wrestler C.  Wrestler C holds criteria point over wrestler A.   All 3 wrestlers hold criteria over everyone else in the tourney.   So they all end up with 6 points.   What does the computer do then?   Or do the coaches have a conversation and decide at that point? 

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13 minutes ago, LCalum said:

I believe he is saying what if 3 wrestlers all end up with 6 points based on the criteria.   And end in a tie.   Then what?   Wrestler A wins criteria point over wrestler B.   Wrestler B holds criteria point over wrestler C.  Wrestler C holds criteria point over wrestler A.   All 3 wrestlers hold criteria over everyone else in the tourney.   So they all end up with 6 points.   What does the computer do then?   Or do the coaches have a conversation and decide at that point? 

I believe it is last years state tournament placement then overall record. The KHSAA released those criteria this week. If they all placed 4th last year at state and carry the same win percentage then who knows? 

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23 minutes ago, LCalum said:

I believe he is saying what if 3 wrestlers all end up with 6 points based on the criteria.   And end in a tie.   Then what?   Wrestler A wins criteria point over wrestler B.   Wrestler B holds criteria point over wrestler C.  Wrestler C holds criteria point over wrestler A.   All 3 wrestlers hold criteria over everyone else in the tourney.   So they all end up with 6 points.   What does the computer do then?   Or do the coaches have a conversation and decide at that point? 

That brings me back to my point in a previous post.  

If all 3 are in the same region.  The one who placed third in the region could be the #1 seed at Semi-state. 

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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

That brings me back to my point in a previous post.  

If all 3 are in the same region.  The one who placed third in the region could be the #1 seed at Semi-state. 

If he placed third in the region, then whoever beat him will have criteria over him, so he cannot be the number 1 seed. 

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2 hours ago, 119Rider said:

If he placed third in the region, then whoever beat him will have criteria over him, so he cannot be the number 1 seed. 

Not true.   If he loses at regions to a kid who he beat earlier in the season they cancel each other out.   Region placement is not part of the criteria.   Head to head would be a wash.  The chances of them having the same winning % are probably slim.   Also wrestler A loses to wrestler B and places 3rd at regions.  But wrestler A beat wrestler C during the regular season and doesn’t wrestle them at regions.  Wrestler C wins that region.   In this scenario wrestler A could be the 1 seed at semi state after not winning regions.  

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1 hour ago, LCalum said:

Not true.   If he loses at regions to a kid who he beat earlier in the season they cancel each other out.   Region placement is not part of the criteria.   Head to head would be a wash.  The chances of them having the same winning % are probably slim.   Also wrestler A loses to wrestler B and places 3rd at regions.  But wrestler A beat wrestler C during the regular season and doesn’t wrestle them at regions.  Wrestler C wins that region.   In this scenario wrestler A could be the 1 seed at semi state after not winning regions.  

This is the scenario that I'm afraid could play out. It gets even more complicated if A & B are in the same region and C is from the region they pair with at semi state. It's the common opponents criteria that messes it up. A wins Regionals over B and C wins his region, but B and C have better common opponents record than A, then B is 1 seed after having finished 2nd at region and A is 3 seed. Or is it a cumulative where all the comparisons for one wreslter between all participants in one criteria are added up?

 

I  think I'm just confusing myself now.

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What if A beat D and B beat C to make finals, but A has a previous win over B and A injury defaults in the finals and keeps his higher seed? 

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17 minutes ago, Tbagnky said:

This is the scenario that I'm afraid could play out. It gets even more complicated if A & B are in the same region and C is from the region they pair with at semi state. It's the common opponents criteria that messes it up. A wins Regionals over B and C wins his region, but B and C have better common opponents record than A, then B is 1 seed after having finished 2nd at region and A is 3 seed. Or is it a cumulative where all the comparisons for one wreslter between all participants in one criteria are added up?

 

I  think I'm just confusing myself now.

It’s hard to seed kids that have all matches in region 1 versus a kid that has all his wins in Region 2. 

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This all sounds like Algebra 2!! This is not the year to do the seeding if they are trying to prove a point. Should be done with a 16 or 32 man bracket.

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The top 4 should be pretty clear in any bracket. It really doesn’t matter the order so long as they meet in the semis and not the quarters (i.e. Bryce sheffer vs Trent Johnson). If you look at the 149 bracket at NAIA’s, it strongly suggests seeding doesn’t really matter.

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14 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

The top 4 should be pretty clear in any bracket. It really doesn’t matter the order so long as they meet in the semis and not the quarters (i.e. Bryce sheffer vs Trent Johnson). If you look at the 149 bracket at NAIA’s, it strongly suggests seeding doesn’t really matter.

It matters at Semi-state because only the top 2 advance. 

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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

It matters at Semi-state because only the top 2 advance. 

Because things are so screwed up this year, some podium pedigree wrestlers will be left at home. It’s the inevitable consequence based on bad decisions. 

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