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DrBaker

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2 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

GOO, just to be clear, I’m in no way back peddling on the seeding component of this mess. Just very concerned with the statement of “let track seed it” approach as that can mean a LOT of different things. And given that way too many coaches around the state refuse to keep track up to date I am very curious what the seeding process will be. 

This has always been my point.  How do we guarantee the seeding is done correctly, or what we perceive as correct, and not everyone perceives everything the same way. 

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Track wrestling keeps track of all wins and losses recorded in its system, as well as limited other info. Not just season info, all info. Now that flosports has purchased track, I'm sure there will be far more criteria. So track seeds the event based off of total body of work. I the event that 1 region champion who has a huge amount of criteria, and gets seeded 1 but has a loss to the 2 seed another region champion during this season, you simply adjust that. It's not a finality. I will say however far more often then not track has it right.

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33 minutes ago, CoachC said:

Track wrestling keeps track of all wins and losses recorded in its system, as well as limited other info. Not just season info, all info. Now that flosports has purchased track, I'm sure there will be far more criteria. So track seeds the event based off of total body of work. I the event that 1 region champion who has a huge amount of criteria, and gets seeded 1 but has a loss to the 2 seed another region champion during this season, you simply adjust that. It's not a finality. I will say however far more often then not track has it right.

That is my point. Track cannot do it by itself, it needs human help.  However I would bet that KHSAA will not use that human help to adjust for the criteria you just mentioned. 

Basing of Total body of work is what?  It should not take into consideration event outside of state high school sponsored events.  

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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

This has always been my point.  How do we guarantee the seeding is done correctly, or what we perceive as correct, and not everyone perceives everything the same way. 

I think there can be a clear criteria set (head to head, prior placements, etc) and if nothing applies default to track rating as coachC describes. The state sets it (hopefully taking recommendations) and we roll with it. I believe they already have a proposed seeding criteria list that, just some regions deviate from it. 

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2 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

That is my point. Track cannot do it by itself, it needs human help.  However I would bet that KHSAA will not use that human help to adjust for the criteria you just mentioned. 

Basing of Total body of work is what?  It should not take into consideration event outside of state high school sponsored events.  

If the results are in the system I’m not sure why track can’t do it. Wrestler A beat wrestler B head to head and that is the top criteria it should put A ahead of B. Seems fairly simple to me. 

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When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

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20 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

If it’s not, and they aren’t taking alternates, there’s no need to even wrestle the consolation brackets.  I think you have to wrestle for true second. 

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1 hour ago, GentleBeard said:

When they say “full wrestle back” in their statement, does that mean wrestling for true 2nd? Or, is it semi-state finals or bust? Sorry if it’s already been answered.

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

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What do they mean it’s one tournament?  Perfect example of no one on the board knowing anything about wrestling.  True second is the only way to ensure semi state gets the best two.  

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10 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

If the results are in the system I’m not sure why track can’t do it. Wrestler A beat wrestler B head to head and that is the top criteria it should put A ahead of B. Seems fairly simple to me. 

Ahh but use this example.  Smith beats Jones during the season.  Jones wins region by beating Smith at the region.  Who gets the higher seed? Smith may still get a higher seed b/c of criteria.  You would then have a regional runner up seeded higher than the same regional champion.  Not to mention Regional champ from 1 defeats regional runner up from region 1 but region 1 runner up defeated region 2 champ in season and region 2 champ defeated region 1 champ in season. A beat B, B beat C, C beat A. Again a regional runner up could end up seeded higher than the same region champ.  Can Track sort all that out? 

And yes I am a stat nerd. 

 

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I don’t see anything wrong with seeding semi state by region placement.  It will separate the 1&2 from a region.   If your region has the better two kids at the weight they will meet in finals.   If not then it will be 1 vs 1.   

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It’s a computer program so I would say whatever logic is decided can be put in place and the system should be able to sort it out. Actually should be able to sort it out much more efficiently than us digging through stat books looking for common opponents. 
 

And if there is no true second then semi state seeding or setup is even more critical. 

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I do have to say out of all the things I have seen. Some bad and some whatever but not wrestling back to a true 2nd is the biggest problem to me. If all the other stuff is going to happen and only two move on so be it. But we should make sure at least it’s the best two on that day and a 2 vs 3 to finish the day would do that easily. What can it hurt. Unless they had already faced each other in early rounds of this tournament. Not really sure any of our opinions matter at this point though.

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Not wrestling back to a true 2nd is stupid. 
Wrestling 1/2 of the same guys you just wrestled at regionals all over again is stupid too. No offense to the kids that get 3rd and 4th in regionals, but it’s a big uphill battle. 
I just can’t wrap my head how any of this fits together. 
The champs will definitely earn their spots. The rest is about 1/2 of the luck of the draws. 

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4 hours ago, coachteater said:

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

The 3rd place finishers at semi state will have better records than 2nd place finishers. 

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As far as team placement, Semi state as an extension of state and scoring carrying over makes it extremely attractive to any teams in weak Regions/Semi’s.  
With Union county in the toughest region / semi state, could this be the year they are de-throned?

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10 hours ago, coachteater said:

There will be no true second.  The reasoning from khsaa is that this is 1 tournament, not 2. 

That is the dumbest comment I heard yet, and you are the voice for this.  If it were one tournament, explain how a kid who takes 2nd at the quad state can still win the state tournament, he has one loss.  If it were one tournament if the kid who takes 2nd only has one loss, the kid who took third only has one loss, but he is out, not how one tournament works.  Stupid comment, they are multiple tournaments. It is a terrible plan that basically says the state champion is all we care about, placing at states really means nothing.  That is what those who agreed to this and the KHSAA have made clear to the athletes.  

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This whole situation is just pathetic. The excuses the KHSAA are coming up with make no sense. Just shows their ignorance when it comes to wrestling tournaments, and wrestling in general. Mike Barren and Julian Tackett, you did this. Hope you get all the backlash you deserve and at least give wrestling a chance next year. Please get someone on the BOC that knows wrestling, will stand up for wrestling, and actually have a backbone to take no for an answer when dumb*ss proposals are presented in the future. It’s for the kids. 

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We are all bitching about this while I watch Indiana wrestle. They have kids with 50 matches and their state finals are running pretty normal. 

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2 hours ago, Kywrestling2021 said:

That is the dumbest comment I heard yet, and you are the voice for this.  If it were one tournament, explain how a kid who takes 2nd at the quad state can still win the state tournament, he has one loss.  If it were one tournament if the kid who takes 2nd only has one loss, the kid who took third only has one loss, but he is out, not how one tournament works.  Stupid comment, they are multiple tournaments. It is a terrible plan that basically says the state champion is all we care about, placing at states really means nothing.  That is what those who agreed to this and the KHSAA have made clear to the athletes.  

Im not the voice for this, it came from wrestling Commissioner Mike Barren, Im simply relying the message. I work very hard to help communication, but if Im going to be called out as making dumb comments,  I just will not say anything publicly.  I will make sure to get information to the people who need it, the coaches. And also there is no "those who agreed to this". This was solely the khsaa's decision, and it is what we must follow. 

And when I call someone out, I put my name on it .

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These are facts as I understand them:

Semi-state is the same tournament as state. 

You can lose at semi-state, but still win state absent of a true double elimination tournament.

There will be no wrestling for true 2nd at semi-state even though 3rd place ends on a winning streak and 2nd place ends with a loss (provided they haven't wrestled each other).

There will be kids who lose in the semi-state finals, go 0-3 at the state tournament - essentially ending their season 0-4 - and end up with an 8th place medal?

The most losses in a 32 man bracket one could have and place, is 3.

The most losses one could have in this 16 man bracket and still place is 4.

Regardless of politics and restrictions in this state, it seems to me there are better solutions.

If I'm wrong here, please help me understand....

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

This whole situation is just pathetic. The excuses the KHSAA are coming up with make no sense. Just shows their ignorance when it comes to wrestling tournaments, and wrestling in general. Mike Barren and Julian Tackett, you did this. Hope you get all the backlash you deserve and at least give wrestling a chance next year. Please get someone on the BOC that knows wrestling, will stand up for wrestling, and actually have a backbone to take no for an answer when dumb*ss proposals are presented in the future. It’s for the kids. 

Their response I actually received in an email: But baseball didn't get to compete in 2020

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The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

Elliott3693@gmail.com

502-649-7931

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1 hour ago, CoachBauer said:

The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

Elliott3693@gmail.com

502-649-

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