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DrBaker

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2 minutes ago, gameface said:
1 hour ago, CoachBauer said:

The lack of a true 2nd at semi state is by far easiest fix out of all the issues in the current setup.

The fact that this post season we could have a (possible) scenario where a kid gets 1st in region and loses once in their first two matches at semi state and ends their season without a chance to place and a 6-1 post season record is, in my opinion, completely unacceptable.

Wrestling is built on the idea that you can always win. You can be losing by 14 and pin your opponent and still win. You can lose in the first round of state and wrestle the hard road back to third. I think that’s why it makes not having a true 2nd such a bitter pill to swallow.

This could be easily changed up the day of semi state by adding a non team scoring match between the 2nd and 3rd placers (if they didn’t see each other earlier in the tournament). You could award placement points after the completion of the entire semi state tournament. 

The other proposals discussed here to make state a 16 man bracket correct the same issue a different way, but personally I don’t see the KHSAA moving that far. However, I do think that joint lobbying by could get them to add this one safety valve to make this bad situation a little bit better. I’ll be writing up a proposal suggesting this change, if you have ideas to make it better or would like to be included when it’s send please let me know.

Coach Elliott Bauer - St. Xavier

Elliott3693@gmail.com

502-649-

Besides not wanting to do what’s right and working with the community of wrestling, I don’t see a reason why the KHSAA wouldn’t make this modification. They cancelled the All A Basketball tournament then it was back on a day or 2 later. I’m sure some persuasive influences helped with that. It would be nice if the wrestling community had some help to get some minor modifications to this post season to make it as normal as possible. 2 minute periods back, either a 16 man bracket or a true 2nd opportunity. 

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I dont understand why they could just take top 4 out of semi state and then split the first rd with 106-145 in the morning and 152-hwt in the afternoon. Indiana did it this weekend and seemed to run very smoothly. Also, I don’t know what the limitations are with the horse park or if state will be there at all given their contract but it seems you can easily run the first rd, qtrs, and a 2 rds of consis on 6 mats instead of 8. That’s 252 matches for the entire day! And can get done pretty early for the next group of guys to be ready in the afternoon. Plus half the guys get knocked out so there’s 8 guys per weight on the second day. Indiana puts on a great state tournament every year with both how they run the tournament on a tight schedule and make it a great athlete and fan experience. Only thing I disagree with is the no first rd wrestle backs but still I’d rather have an Indiana tournament system than this garbage of a top 2 semi state anyday.

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8 hours ago, gameface said:

Besides not wanting to do what’s right and working with the community of wrestling, I don’t see a reason why the KHSAA wouldn’t make this modification. They cancelled the All A Basketball tournament then it was back on a day or 2 later. I’m sure some persuasive influences helped with that. It would be nice if the wrestling community had some help to get some minor modifications to this post season to make it as normal as possible. 2 minute periods back, either a 16 man bracket or a true 2nd opportunity. 

Adding true second would seem to be an easy fix. Again without it, and no alternates, there’s no reason to even wrestle conso’s.

The All A isn’t a good comparison though. It’s run privately, and aside from it being part of the regular season for those who participate, the KHSAA isn’t involved in running, managing or any decision making for that tournament. It wasn’t the KHSAAs call to cancel or reinstate.

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2 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Adding true second would seem to be an easy fix. Again without it, and no alternates, there’s no reason to even wrestle conso’s.

The All A isn’t a good comparison though. It’s run privately, and aside from it being part of the regular season for those who participate, the KHSAA isn’t involved in running, managing or any decision making for that tournament. It wasn’t the KHSAAs call to cancel or reinstate.

So since this was run privately how do we get our post season the same way and just cut KHSAA completely out of our postseason since it seems they really don't have any interest besides making money. The Middle School post season seems to have survived for years with out any involvement from KHSAA so is there a need for them in our post season?

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Like a lot of you I was glad that we even got to have a season. I agree that region and state could be handled better. What bothers me the most Is that the young men and women that compete in a sport that is buy far the most physically  and mentally demanding are just a after thought of the KHSAA

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A good way to look at the All "A" is compare it to State Duals.  The All "A" is a small school champ and state duals is our team champ.  Neither one is run by KHSAA.

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12 hours ago, HawkeyeX125 said:

I dont understand why they could just take top 4 out of semi state and then split the first rd with 106-145 in the morning and 152-hwt in the afternoon. Indiana did it this weekend and seemed to run very smoothly. Also, I don’t know what the limitations are with the horse park or if state will be there at all given their contract but it seems you can easily run the first rd, qtrs, and a 2 rds of consis on 6 mats instead of 8. That’s 252 matches for the entire day! And can get done pretty early for the next group of guys to be ready in the afternoon. Plus half the guys get knocked out so there’s 8 guys per weight on the second day. Indiana puts on a great state tournament every year with both how they run the tournament on a tight schedule and make it a great athlete and fan experience. Only thing I disagree with is the no first rd wrestle backs but still I’d rather have an Indiana tournament system than this garbage of a top 2 semi state anyday.

It makes too much sense. 

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1 hour ago, jnv858 said:

So since this was run privately how do we get our post season the same way and just cut KHSAA completely out of our postseason since it seems they really don't have any interest besides making money. The Middle School post season seems to have survived for years with out any involvement from KHSAA so is there a need for them in our post season?

The All A isn’t really a good example. The winners aren’t considered or called a state champion. The whole state doesn’t get to participate and only schools below a certain enrollment are even invited.  Games aren’t post season games...rather it is just simply a large multi-date  basketball tournament. The comparison is really apples vs oranges. 

There is no way to remove the KHSAA from the sport and keep school based. Wrestling (or any other high school sport) cannot exist as we know it without a state governing body. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

The All A isn’t really a good example. The winners aren’t considered or called a state champion. The whole state doesn’t get to participate and only schools below a certain enrollment are even invited.  Games aren’t post season games...rather it is just simply a large multi-date  basketball tournament. The comparison is really apples vs oranges. 

There is no way to remove the KHSAA from the sport and keep school based. Wrestling (or any other high school sport) cannot exist as we know it without a state governing body. 
 

 

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought it was a part of the KHSAA. I guess my point to this was, why doesn’t the KHSAA value the information and relationships of the wrestling community and not make a stronger effort to put on the best venue and event possible. The letter Scotty Teater shared with us all, from the KHSAA, stated that it had communicated with many other associations and numerous people in the sport to come up with what we have. They obviously didn’t reach out to any other high school association to see how their making it work. IHSAA just completed theirs successfully with still a complete tourney and finals. OHSAA is in the middle of there’s. FHSAA, Georgia, Wisconsin, Colorado, Alabama all have had the same type of tournament they always have had with attendance modification. Still nice venues, no change in competition format and certainly no reduction in minutes per period. So who exactly did they go to to gather this information? And it seems like we are all being told to either take what we give you or you can look at basketball and baseball last year as a comparison of being “greatful”. We’ve all learned a lot about Covid and seen hundreds of events ran with the masks, spacing and cleaning. Why does it need to be an uphill battle? 

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6 hours ago, otisgcc said:

Wouldn't you have a true 2nd place if you drew semi state up like this? Only downside would be if somebody gets upset along the way

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No. What if the region 1 3rd place kid is the second best in the state. He’s only lost to #1 in region 1 at regionals and loses in the bracket you show. #2 kid in state would miss state. 

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8 hours ago, DrBaker said:

No. What if the region 1 3rd place kid is the second best in the state. He’s only lost to #1 in region 1 at regionals and loses in the bracket you show. #2 kid in state would miss state. 

If the 3rd place kid at region is the second best kid in the state, with his only loss to the best kid in the state coming before region finals, the seeding at region was done wrong.

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2 hours ago, CoachC said:

If the 3rd place kid at region is the second best kid in the state, with his only loss to the best kid in the state coming before region finals, the seeding at region was done wrong.

I just tried and tried to make it work out, but its damn near impossible. 3rd place in a region will get a 2nd shot at #1 even if they lost to #2, and possibly get another shot at the #2. Soooo, I like this idea. 

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If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

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50 minutes ago, Bearcats Coach said:

If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

Couldn’t have said it any better. Pretty much covers the feeling of the majority of the wrestling community that gets repeated every year. 

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The KHSAA BOC is made of mostly administrators, right?  Principals, AD’s, etc.

Who is the best resource wrestling has on the BOC?  Are there any AD’s out there that consider wrestling their #1?

Might be the best place to get motion towards change. 

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6 hours ago, Bearcats Coach said:

If they are saying that the Semi-State and State are the "SAME" tournament just broken up in 2 different weekends. Then any kid that loses their first match at Semi-State should have the opportunity to keep wrestling back to get third, unless you go 0-2 early on, the kids should all stay in the tournament and have a shot to advance to the "STATE" tournament. If they are allowing the team points to carry over, well then let the wrestlers that are still in carry over to the next weekend also. Its not about the KHSAA, or the coaches. Its about giving these kids the best opportunity, the best State tournament experience they deserve. 

If we were at Alltech arena and had a 32 man bracket or even a 16 man bracket, any kid that loses can still try to come back to take third.

This will never happen, too many egos at top. I think the KHSAA should build committees/BOC for each sport. Put the people that know their sport on these committees and let these people run their state tournaments. Softball does theirs, Tennis does theirs, Wrestling does theirs, etc...

KHSAA can oversee it and be there as a resource, but let the wrestling coaches run the State tournaments. Give them a budget, let them decided on what the medals/trophies will be, or at least let them have some say on designs.  Obviously they want to keep as much of this uniform as possible with all sports, but some things can be tweaked. The Football and Basketball trophies aren't the same as the rest of the sports. Let the coaches get the venue with some guidance from KHSAA. My point is that you don't take KHSAA out of the picture, but let the people/coaches that know their sport run the State Tournament. I hear it all the time, we aren't there yet or we aren't big enough yet or we don't have that many teams yet. I call BS on this. When Ranger and I were on the MS board as President and VP, we looked at that opportunity on how we could can make the MS State tournament better than it was. Always trying to improve things, from new podium, medals, bracket boards, state final singlets and many other things.

If you haven't ever been, go to the last day of the Ohio State HS Wrestling Tournament. This is like seeing the ocean for the first time, its overwhelming. We aren't even on the same universe with them regarding what a State tournament is like or should be ran like. Its mind-boggling  actually.

We as coaches can run this event, we just need the KHSAA to trust that they have some really good wrestling coaches/people that can do this. Its so distasteful to see what these kids have worked for and now they have a tournament that just checks the box for them to say we did our part, there was a State tournament. You can bet that they would never cut out the first or second round of the Sweet 16.  

I just feel bad for these kids!

Well said. It begs the question, what happens when a group that organizes tournaments for a variety of sports meets a group that specializes in tournaments for a specific sport? 

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I spoke with Mr Barren today about Semi State and State. The wording could be interpreted both ways for wrestler placement,  so he got clarification with Mr. Tackett. 

After regions the 8 wrestlers will NOT be placed 1v4 2v3. They will use trackwrestling to seed all 8 for semi state. Then at state, they will again use trackwrestling to seed the 8 there. 

I do not know the criteria, but assume they will use criteria set by nfhs. 

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The trackwrestling rankings use a formula with wins and losses. It doesn't seem to take in account of who actually beat each other. They still need a person to interpret the rankings. Its funny that they will use it for those tourneys, but not Regionals. 

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13 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

The trackwrestling rankings use a formula with wins and losses. It doesn't seem to take in account of who actually beat each other. They still need a person to interpret the rankings. Its funny that they will use it for those tourneys, but not Regionals. 

Ranking yes, but not seeding. It is not a formula by wins and loses. Seeds will not be by rankings, but a group of information. 

When you run the tournament there is a page to set criteria. You set them in order and it will calculate seeds by that. 

They can make head to head criteria, common opponents, placement in region, past place winners, and win percentage. 

Once you set those, it seeds. And after running regions the last 6-7 years, they are pretty accurately seeded by this. Usually the mess ups come with kids that have great records full of forfeits and no head to head. But after wrestling regions, those kids will be eliminated and most kids should have a good amount of information to seed on. Imo

Also it is my understanding khsaa does want use using trackwrestling to seed region. But we can adjust as needed during region seed meeting.

They eventually want trackwrestling doing all the region seeding I believe.  

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IMO. There will be some major complaints. Especially when a 3rd place finisher in a region gets a 1st seed at semi state.  IE. kid gets upset at region places 3rd but beat everyone during the regular season.  Why place the regional tourney then? Heck you can even forfeit in the finals of region and still get the 1st seed at semi state. 

Seed the #1s then the #2s. If the top #2 is not in the same region as a #1 above him then allow him to move up. ect. ect. 

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39 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

IMO. There will be some major complaints. Especially when a 3rd place finisher in a region gets a 1st seed at semi state.  IE. kid gets upset at region places 3rd but beat everyone during the regular season.  Why place the regional tourney then? Heck you can even forfeit in the finals of region and still get the 1st seed at semi state. 

Seed the #1s then the #2s. If the top #2 is not in the same region as a #1 above him then allow him to move up. ect. ect. 

As long as region placement is part of the criteria, the region winners can be no worse than a two seed at semi state.

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54 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

As long as region placement is part of the criteria, the region winners can be no worse than a two seed at semi state.

Ha ha. Depending on where you put that you could end up essentially forcing the 1v4, 2v3 that we theoretically “won’t have”. 

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8 minutes ago, Ranger123 said:

Ha ha. Depending on where you put that you could end up essentially forcing the 1v4, 2v3 that we theoretically “won’t have”. 

True. The order of criteria will make a big difference. And I know many don’t hold region placement in high regard due to the sometimes big variance in overall strength and depth from region to region.

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