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DrBaker

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11 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months.

What does last season's spring sports being cancelled have to due with this season's wrestling format? We are in the here and now. You plan for the best and make adjustments. Not plan for the minimum(which is more harmful to most than helpful) and then throw your hands up like well at least we get to have one. 

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Just now, BigBossMan said:

What does last season's spring sports being cancelled have to due with this season's wrestling format? We are in the here and now. You plan for the best and make adjustments. Not plan for the minimum(which is more harmful to most than helpful) and then throw your hands up like well at least we get to have one. 

You're right...perhaps it doesn't have any relationship. What's done is done. Just offering some perspective, and maybe the idea, that this could be much, much worse than it currently is.

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2 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

If a wrestler got sick or couldn't compete for some reason he was replaced by the alternate in his region. If there are limitations than those should be explained in the meeting. And the KHSAA works for who? That is rhetorical.

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Just now, rjs4470 said:

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

All I know is they’ve mentioned on multiple occasions that a significant number is not familiar with wrestling, not from a wrestling area, or that mike barren has talked to “coaches” only to qualify his statement by saying he’s talked to “3 coaches”. I’ve watched every BOC meeting since October. My biggest issue with everything is the close mindedness of the khsaa and the self service they provide themselves and seemingly no one else. I’m not on the BOC, but if I was, I think I’d have clear goals, clear communication, and a solutions based optimism that benefits the competitors and families more than myself. I wouldn’t sit back and do nothing.

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At it's foundation, wrestling rewards effort. To deny a kid the ability to medal because of where they live surely isn't the message we want to send. Consoling seniors who put themselves in a position to be successful in this final year will be a challenge especially as they watch competitors they've beaten reach the podium because of the reduced competition in the regional match ups. It makes no sense. Can our coaches association lobby for 16 man brackets at state? We have a number of ways that can be done and done safely.

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Not to mention this idea has 14 placers who will go 0-3 at state tourney to finish 8th place.   What was once a great accomplishment and a battle through the brackets now feels more like a kick in the nuts.  
 

this is still a proposal at this point right?   What can we do to change it? 

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3 minutes ago, BigBossMan said:

If a wrestler got sick or couldn't compete for some reason he was replaced by the alternate in his region. If there are limitations than those should be explained in the meeting. And the KHSAA works for who? That is rhetorical.

If a kid caught the flu, then they’d be out and the next kid would step in. That’s obvious from years’ past. But, in 2021 with an 8 man bracket, and contact tracing and mandatory quarantines, I’m thinking everyone in that bracket would be flagged and disqualified. So, then what? A 6 man bracket for that weight? 

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3 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

You're right...perhaps it doesn't have any relationship. What's done is done. Just offering some perspective, and maybe the idea, that this could be much, much worse than it currently is.

You can see in my prior posts my position on the proposal being presented to the Board. I do not mean any disrespect to you or your opinion. I have been involved with wrestling in KY for over 30 years as a wrestler, coach and referee. I have hosted tournaments and travelled all over the state to great tournaments and now my children are beyond their wrestling years. The current athletes involved have a great stake and have worked their tales off to get on the podium and they deserve every available option. Not one that meets the minimum required amount. I try and leave things better than I found them. My hope is others feel the same.

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8 minutes ago, BigBossMan said:

You can see in my prior posts my position on the proposal being presented to the Board. I do not mean any disrespect to you or your opinion. I have been involved with wrestling in KY for over 30 years as a wrestler, coach and referee. I have hosted tournaments and travelled all over the state to great tournaments and now my children are beyond their wrestling years. The current athletes involved have a great stake and have worked their tales off to get on the podium and they deserve every available option. Not one that meets the minimum required amount. I try and leave things better than I found them. My hope is others feel the same.

I get it. And I understand why so many are upset. What's been presented is certainly far from perfect, and yes there are likely better solutions that are available, maybe even beyond what's been presented here. It's just hard for me to be super critical when I don't know what directives the KHSAA are receiving from the State. None of us know unless we've been on that Board. Again, no sport has gotten what they've wanted or felt their athletes deserved for the last 12 months. Doesn't mean it's ok, but it just is what it is. I don't believe the KHSAA hates, or doesn't care about wrestling. This is an unprecedented time, with issues that we've never seen or had to deal with before. Sports has mirrored policy in general....things change quickly, sometimes overnight. Rules are made, changed, and then changed again. It makes planning very difficult. My company stages many events in several states, and I can tell you, event planning has been virtually impossible due to regulations set forth by the state and local governments as well as venues, which often play by different sets of rules. It's been so difficult, it's to the point where we just aren't doing events of any size. I can only imagine the same is true for something like the State Wrestling Tournament. We all knew this year was going to be different. Hopefully, things are better next year. I am trying to make the best lemonade possible with the lemons that we've been dealt.

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I do believe if it had been top 4 out of semi-state and a 16 man bracket we would be seeing a lot less outrage. The way this bracket is set up reminds me of similar issues Virginia had in I want to say 2015 when they split into 6 or so different divisions and had 8 man state brackets

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31 minutes ago, FalconWrestling said:

I do believe if it had been top 4 out of semi-state and a 16 man bracket we would be seeing a lot less outrage. The way this bracket is set up reminds me of similar issues Virginia had in I want to say 2015 when they split into 6 or so different divisions and had 8 man state brackets

It would be a much better representation of the best in the state. 

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Basically what we have is semi-state being the first three rounds or so of state but without the ability of a 3/4 from another region to beat the 1/2 of a different region because of no random draw which really further highlights the regional differences with how many Louisville area programs have dropped the past five or so years

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5 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Of course it can seed a tourney but can it correctly. 

Not sure of its capabilities, but most seeds are determined by mostly head to head and common opponent.

Correctly is exactly what you would get. It cuts thru all of the arguing about records, who beat who with no head to head. All of that. How many times has a coach argued that a kids seed should be higher based on a something and 0 record, when in fact half of the kids wins were against the same 5 opponents. Track seeds kids based on all of their wins and losses. Fact.

Also, there is really no need to seed semi state. 1vs.4, 2vs.3, 3vs.2, 4vs.1. Bracket set up and ready to wrestle.

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This whole seeding discussion really has me concerned. I’ve always been an advocate for seeding more than we do, but would be nice to know a little more detail how it will happen. 
The more I think about it the more I don’t know that there should be any seeding shenanigans going on at semi-state. I could see a situation where the top 2 kids in the state are in the same region and after meeting in the region finals the “seeding” puts them on the same side at semi state. I guess a true second match would help fix that, but hopefully we get it straight from the beginning. Keep it simple as CoachC put it above. 

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16 minutes ago, FalconWrestling said:

I don't think it's clear, will semi-state team points carry over to the state tournament? I am assuming yes based off of context

Yes, points carry over. They said it in meeting.  Barren said its basically 1 tournament over two Saturdays 

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51 minutes ago, coachteater said:

 

6 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

I get it. And I understand why so many are upset. What's been presented is certainly far from perfect, and yes there are likely better solutions that are available, maybe even beyond what's been presented here. It's just hard for me to be super critical when I don't know what directives the KHSAA are receiving from the State. None of us know unless we've been on that Board. Again, no sport has gotten what they've wanted or felt their athletes deserved for the last 12 months. Doesn't mean it's ok, but it just is what it is. I don't believe the KHSAA hates, or doesn't care about wrestling. This is an unprecedented time, with issues that we've never seen or had to deal with before. Sports has mirrored policy in general....things change quickly, sometimes overnight. Rules are made, changed, and then changed again. It makes planning very difficult. My company stages many events in several states, and I can tell you, event planning has been virtually impossible due to regulations set forth by the state and local governments as well as venues, which often play by different sets of rules. It's been so difficult, it's to the point where we just aren't doing events of any size. I can only imagine the same is true for something like the State Wrestling Tournament. We all knew this year was going to be different. Hopefully, things are better next year. I am trying to make the best lemonade possible with the lemons that we've been dealt.

Wrestling tournaments started back up in July, I believe (maybe sooner?). There’s a significant track record of successful tournaments in different states as well as 2 bordering states and the GHSAA who are nearly done with their season while keeping their post season nearly intact. There were 10 months of data across the country to help plan a safe, successful season/post season. Not to mention, the various suggestions that made sense on this forum that fell on deaf ears. The KHSAA stated their concerns were 1) cost, 2) overnight stays, and 3) travel. The competitors and families are the only ones that now get to bear that burden (including a new, unexpected week of expenses via semi state), yet don’t complain near as much as the powers that be. Nevertheless, in one month, we will be wrestling a state qualifier at venues yet to be determined. 


For what it’s worth, I do believe we need to make adjustments to our qualifying process. This just wasn’t the year, or time of the season, to try it out. 

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Obviously a vast majority of us are not pleased with the currently proposed solution. It may be too late, but we can't let this go silently. I have attached an alternate proposal for this post season. The only chance we have to turn this thing around, if there is any at all, is to start asking for the same thing. I am urging all of you to read through this proposal and get behind it. 

 

The attached proposal outlines why the current solution is not acceptable. 46 of the top 10 ranked kids in the state are mathematically eliminated from contention already. That is 46 kids that have worked for years to get on the podium that the KHSAA is slamming the door on. Then it goes on to outline a new post season setup and its advantages. The new setup is as follows:

  • Regional Tournament as usual
  • 2 semi-states (Regions 1-4 and 5-8) with top 4 from each region. 16 man brackets. 
  • 16 man state championship, top 8 from each semi state. 

Next it outlines how a "COVID Friendly" 16 man bracket tournament could be ran in a normal high school gym with 4 fans per wrestler. And lastly it shows how this setup will not only result in a better and more fair setup for the wrestlers but also generate more revenue for the KHSAA than the other current proposal.

 

I know this is not a perfect proposal and maybe you think that you have a slightly better idea, but we are not going to get anywhere until we all start saying the same thing. We need to work together and take this proposal to the board of control. If we can all stand behind one idea maybe, just maybe we can get them to change this. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with whatever idea they come up with on their own, which obviously is not what we want.

At this link you can find the KHSAA Board of control. https://khsaa.org/2020-21-khsaa-board-of-control/

Our best chance is for everyone to have their Coach/AD/Super call their representative and show them this proposal. Please help me spread the word on this and let's see if we can get something done on this finally.

Wrestling Post Season Alternate Proposal.pdf

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10 hours ago, Canter22 said:

Obviously a vast majority of us are not pleased with the currently proposed solution. It may be too late, but we can't let this go silently. I have attached an alternate proposal for this post season. The only chance we have to turn this thing around, if there is any at all, is to start asking for the same thing. I am urging all of you to read through this proposal and get behind it. 

 

The attached proposal outlines why the current solution is not acceptable. 46 of the top 10 ranked kids in the state are mathematically eliminated from contention already. That is 46 kids that have worked for years to get on the podium that the KHSAA is slamming the door on. Then it goes on to outline a new post season setup and its advantages. The new setup is as follows:

  • Regional Tournament as usual
  • 2 semi-states (Regions 1-4 and 5-8) with top 4 from each region. 16 man brackets. 
  • 16 man state championship, top 8 from each semi state. 

Next it outlines how a "COVID Friendly" 16 man bracket tournament could be ran in a normal high school gym with 4 fans per wrestler. And lastly it shows how this setup will not only result in a better and more fair setup for the wrestlers but also generate more revenue for the KHSAA than the other current proposal.

 

I know this is not a perfect proposal and maybe you think that you have a slightly better idea, but we are not going to get anywhere until we all start saying the same thing. We need to work together and take this proposal to the board of control. If we can all stand behind one idea maybe, just maybe we can get them to change this. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with whatever idea they come up with on their own, which obviously is not what we want.

At this link you can find the KHSAA Board of control. https://khsaa.org/2020-21-khsaa-board-of-control/

Our best chance is for everyone to have their Coach/AD/Super call their representative and show them this proposal. Please help me spread the word on this and let's see if we can get something done on this finally.

Wrestling Post Season Alternate Proposal.pdf

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

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17 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

So the 16 man bracket has to be run in 2 days regardless to avoid the 5 match rule. However, as far as spacing there are multiple gyms that are capable of fitting 4 mats with the required 5' spacing between wrestling areas (circles). 

 

With the proposal we are introducing the number of people in attendance should be essentially the same as the current proposal the KHSAA has. With the exception that we will still need to have room for the additional 112 wrestlers that are competing in the second session. In the proposal I stated that it will be less than 800, this is a fairly rough estimate where I rounded up significantly to generate a safe number for attendance planning. I have recently been informed that there are maybe not as many gyms that can accommodate these numbers as I had originally thought. However with this proposal only 2 gyms of this size are required. While with the KHSAA solution 4 separate venues of the same size would be required.

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24 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Obviously 16 man brackets solve many of the problems. But one of the issues that hasn't been mentioned as to why they chose 8 man brackets I think is related to mat spacing. Current guidelines are requiring 10 foot spacing between mats. I'm not sure there are many HS gyms that will accommodate 4 mats with the now required spacing. Most gyms will only be able to fit 2 or 3 at most, and it's tough to run a 16 man bracket efficiently in one day without at least 4 mats. 8 man brackets can be done on two mats in one day, which means no overnight stay is necessary.  A 16 man bracket at region is fine, because most teams won't need to spend the night, and the event can be spread over two days.

Space and mats would not be an issue. Neither would overnight stays. Wrestlers and parents don’t care about spending the night as much as the KHSAA. If you have a 16 man bracket at regionals, a significant number of teams would need to spend the night. That’s NOT an issue amongst the wrestling community. The only people that take issue with spending the night are those that have no skin in the game and they may need to sacrifice comfort for the benefit of the kids. That’s not something they’re willing to entertain. 

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16 minutes ago, Canter22 said:

So the 16 man bracket has to be run in 2 days regardless to avoid the 5 match rule. However, as far as spacing there are multiple gyms that are capable of fitting 4 mats with the required 5' spacing between wrestling areas (circles). 

 

With the proposal we are introducing the number of people in attendance should be essentially the same as the current proposal the KHSAA has. With the exception that we will still need to have room for the additional 112 wrestlers that are competing in the second session. In the proposal I stated that it will be less than 800, this is a fairly rough estimate where I rounded up significantly to generate a safe number for attendance planning. I have recently been informed that there are maybe not as many gyms that can accommodate these numbers as I had originally thought. However with this proposal only 2 gyms of this size are required. While with the KHSAA solution 4 separate venues of the same size would be required.

Unless I'm reading it or interpreting it wrong (which is possible) the return to play guidelines issued by the KHSAA in September specifically say 10 feet between mats is required. It's under Event Setup on page 17. This is the biggest issue we've been facing in trying to run wrestling events. This literally cuts the space we have available for mats in half.

 

https://khsaa.org/resources/Covid19/CovidResumptionofSports/ApprovedVersion/Winter/wrestlingcombined.pdf

 

EVENT SETUP

➢ Put a hand sanitizer station mat side. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Provide sanitizing wipes at the scorer's table. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Table workers must wear gloves. (RECOMMENDED)

➢ Mats must be cleaned between matches. (REQUIRED)

➢ Spacing between mats must be 10 feet (REQUIRED)

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