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DrBaker

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15 minutes ago, coachteater said:

That wasnt the khsaa goal, they laid out what they wanted and got it. 32 kids to qualify for state(semi state is state) , same amount of placers(8), spectators for state (8 man brackets at semi and state allow this), and have at a school located close to Lexington (to be announced,  but im sure they have one lined out)

I dont necessary like it, but better than some other states and other options. 

My biggest complaint is from the government that's putting ridiculous restrictions on us all. They cause this whole problem.  Thats my 2 cents for what its worth

The fact so many are confused/upset with this decision suggests there were plenty of other options that were not listened to. 
 

Semi-state is not state, IMO. It’s a qualifier just like regionals. Ask a kid from Indiana how he did at state, and he won’t tell you how he did at semi-state. Just my 2 cents.

It’s abundantly clear, now, the khsaa is self serving. They don’t want to stay overnight, but teams will have to (multiple weeks). They don’t want to spend money, but teams will have to spend in a significant way. 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

I see 2 state champs on the list of kids that would be sitting home if we went off the rankings.  I can see Raney  and Tom KC winning this year.  

Agreed. Good news is that they will have their shot. 

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Listed concerns from the BOC meeting were(in no particular order)

  • 1)Money, teams having expenses
  • 2)Travel concerns.
  • 3)Overnight stays.

So adding another "round to the state tournament called semi state" lessens which of these concerns? Teams from either regions 1 or 2, 5 or 6 and 7 or 8 are going to have to come up with all 3(Money, Travel and overnight stays), 3 times depending on where regions are held. So that theory is horse manure. Guess who is making the money, not having to travel or have overnight stays?

Maybe wrestling can use Rupp Arena late at night after basketball is done. Coaches, parents, wrestlers and refs are used to that.

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2 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Kids get bad draws every year. It happens. It’s just a different setup. The cream will rise to the top. 

This is true. The cream will always rise, but that is the difference between wrestling and other sports. In our sport we don't just congratulate the top one or two.  We congratulate 8 and for many of those kids and programs the 3-8 is just as satisfying as getting 1st. 

For that matter even qualifying is regarded as a huge accomplishment by some.  This is what makes our sport so great. There are several opportunities to be succeed, and be recognized. 

Hey as usual these are just the opinions of GOO you can take them or leave them. 

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9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

The fact so many are confused/upset with this decision suggests there were plenty of other options that were not listened to. Us involved in the sport care more about getting the right kids in the tournament (even if it’s an 8 man bracket) than how many fans get to attend. They messed up pretty bad and it’s going to show in the postseason. Also, no contingency plan in case covid comes during semi state. State will be more watered down than some semi states.

Agreed.   Other than not having a post season, which option is this better than? Of the 20 or so options that were brought up just on here this seems like the worst.   I’m curious what other options they (KHSAA) were considering.  

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3 minutes ago, coachteater said:

That wasnt the khsaa goal, they laid out what they wanted and got it. 32 kids to qualify for state(semi state is state) , same amount of placers(8), spectators for state (8 man brackets at semi and state allow this), and have at a school located close to Lexington (to be announced,  but im sure they have one lined out)

I dont necessary like it, but better than some other states and other options. 

My biggest complaint is from the government that's putting ridiculous restrictions on us all. They cause this whole problem.  Thats my 2 cents for what its worth

It truly baffles me that it can be repeated over and over and not cause huge concern that our Association is Ok with just getting this ran and over with and not put the best product out their for our sport and these kids. This attitude of “ we should just be thankful” is getting old, while so many states have and are showing that it can be done in the normal format. How can it not be a goal to create the most competitive State as possible. Also “semi-state” is not like an extension of the 1st day of state. You don’t have the ability to wrestle back to a third place at state. Using the same information others are using on this thread as where kids are at (Kentucky Wrestling Forum’s Rankings by Ranger, which always seem pretty accurate). Regions that have 5-6 of the top ten leave home 4 of those wrestlers while other regions that have wrestlers down the list get an automatic trip to state. Also the state race now becomes about the higher ranked teams in same regions eliminating each other while other regions advance wrestlers based on lack of competition. It’s crazy that this whole foundation is built on a governor and his medical sidekick to establish how many people can be together with no ability to make a concession to all post season events to be normal and use a venue that can accommodate this sport. 

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3 minutes ago, gameface said:

It truly baffles me that it can be repeated over and over and not cause huge concern that our Association is Ok with just getting this ran and over with and not put the best product out their for our sport and these kids. This attitude of “ we should just be thankful” is getting old.

Agreed! If you take a baseball bat to my kneecaps, I’m not going to “just be thankful” you handed me a pair of crutches.

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8 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

To look at this as a half full person.

We (as a community) got most of what we wanted.

1. A season

2. A post season

3. Same amount of state qualifiers.

What we didn't get.

1. Full 32 man state tourney

2. A 16 man state tourney with 4 advancing from Semi State. 

Not a horrible thing.  I just feel sorry for those that are going to be sitting at home when they could have possibly placed. (Especially those that are seniors)

GOO

I am glad you are a half full person, I try to be as well. In no said form or fashion has there been any talks of cancelling state tournament. In fact, the lack of preparation has been exposed. The lack of options regarding venues and formats has left us, the wrestling community, in the current situation. I'm not the smartest person and try to be around persons whose interests match mine. When we have a common problem we work together to come up with a solution that may not benefit an individual, but the greatest portion of the group.

The current BOC proposal only benefits one group in the wrestling world and that's the KHSAA.

In one of the earlier BOC work sessions, concerning boys basketball state tournament, the only discussion was involving the use and dates available at Rupp Arena. The amount of fans allowed was a concern and was mentioned, but Rupp Arena was going to be the venue. Wrestling still does not have a venue, instead 4 semi-state venues have to be secured and a state-finals venue as well.

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1 hour ago, CoachC said:

It's not impossible for track to seed these tournaments. The lack of coaches uploading info and results is what leads you to believe it is impossible. But the fact is, they could easily be seeded by track.

Yep. And the criteria isn't really that complicated. I've seen track used to seed tourney's with basic criteria, and it does a really good job. It may get a little dicey if you have two returning state champs without a head to head matchup. At the regional level, most seeding will go off of head to head then state placement from last year. Semi-State could get a little dicey because of unbalance in regions and the fact that there might not be as much head to head. By the time you are at State, seeding really won't be as much of an issue, as in theory, everyone there will be really good.

Yes it's unfortunate that some good wrestlers won't get to go to State. But good kids every year get bad draws. There are always a handful of quarterfinal matches at state that should be semi final, or even finals matches because of the random draw. That same thing will happen this year, it's just going to happen at semi-state.

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Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

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10 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Agreed.   Other than not having a post season, which option is this better than? Of the 20 or so options that were brought up just on here this seems like the worst.   I’m curious what other options they (KHSAA) were considering.  

I did some leg work. Found a venue that was open the weekend of March 27th. Attendance wouldn’t have been an issue as they’ve been hosting events already. Wrestle regionals on 3/13 and state on 3/27. Mitigate risk of covid putting qualifiers out of the state tournament, and then wrestling state as normal. But, KHSAA wants to “save money” and had “travel concerns”. Yet, those that will be traveling and spending the most money are the competitors and families - none of which I heard were concerns until today. Instead of 2 weeks of travel, it’s now going to be 3 weeks. I feel bad for the seniors - especially region 5/6 at 160. If the “cream rises to the top”, then the “cream” should be at state, not on the sidelines. Just my 2 cents

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3 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

That makes too much sense...that’s why.

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5 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Freedom hall was a viable option.  They were approached and excited for the opportunity to discuss hosting state.   This would have allowed for a normal size bracket with fan attendance at a reasonable price.   It likely would have included a small entry fee per team or wrestler or coach to make this happen.  Barren was presented with this option and showed no interest or willingness to look further into it.   
 

i don’t know why.  My only guess would be 1) it wasn’t as easy.  2) KHSAA wouldn’t make profit off of it.  Or 3) it’s not located in lexington.  
 

national duals a couple years ago was held at freedom hall with great success.  It would make a great venue for state tourney.  And the venue (at least at the time) was available the weekend we needed it.  Why was this not considered?  Louisville is still centrally located.  It would cut down tremendously on travel by eliminating an additional weekend.  And most importantly it’s fair to the kids.   

I'd guess that cost and lack of allowed attendance is almost certainly a factor. When you think about the fact that the KHSAA both Sweet Sixteen's, all the revenue from the 2020 spring sports State tourney's, and almost certainly did no better than break even in the 2020 football finals, the KHSAA budget has to be really thin, and maybe running on fumes. No sport has gotten what they've wanted for the last 11 months. 

 

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5 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Yes it's unfortunate that some good wrestlers won't get to go to State. But good kids every year get bad draws. There are always a handful of quarterfinal matches at state that should be semi final, or even finals matches because of the random draw. That same thing will happen this year, it's just going to happen at semi-state.

You’re talking about state - where you can wrestle back to still place 3rd if you get beat early. Semi-state is finals or bust. State now has participation medals. If only 8 make it, only 4 should place.

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Just now, rjs4470 said:

I'd guess that cost and lack of allowed attendance is almost certainly a factor. When you think about the fact that the KHSAA both Sweet Sixteen's, all the revenue from the 2020 spring sports State tourney's, and almost certainly did no better than break even in the 2020 football finals, the budget has to be really thin.

Freedom Hall under current restrictions can hold 1000+ spectators in addition to wrestlers, coaches, refs and personnel. That's not even counting using the north wing like they did during national duals.

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9 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

You’re talking about state - where you can wrestle back to still place 3rd if you get beat early. Semi-state is finals or bust. State now has participation medals. If only 8 make it, only 4 should place.

Ok, I can't completely argue with that. But arguing that part of it is really just semantics. In theory, you're still looking at the "top 8" wrestlers in the state, that have won their way to that position, which is no different than the regular 32 man bracket with 8 placers, who also had to win their way into those positions. And even under normal conditions, there were always top kids that didn't make the podium, whether it was due to a bad draw, dumb luck, an injury or a bad day. People have complained for years about how watered down the 32 man bracket is. Now suddenly, it seems everyone loves the 32 man bracket. 

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34 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

Kids get bad draws every year. It happens. It’s just a different setup. The cream will rise to the top. 

Kids do get bad draws at state. The worst one being the quarterfinal match between Sheffer and Johnson a few years ago. But, that was at state and Trent dominated his way to 3rd and Bryce dominated his way to another title. No doubt, some semifinal matchups at semi state mimic this. Problem is, the kid who would dominate to get 3rd will be staying home with the inability to do so. If the “cream rises to the top”, I think it’s important that only “the cream” is competing at state.

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Region 1&2 have 6 of the top 10 at 106 (just the first example of many).   So 4 of them will not qualify.  While region 3&4 only have one kid in the rankings at all and is outside the top 15.  Not sure I’d call that semantics.   The best kid should no doubt qualify for state.  But the best kids will not be represented as they should.   And it has nothing to do with bad draws or losing a match they shouldn’t.   

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13 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Kids do get bad draws at state. The worst one being the quarterfinal match between Sheffer and Johnson a few years ago. But, that was at state and Trent dominated his way to 3rd and Bryce dominated his way to another title. No doubt, some semifinal matchups at semi state mimic this. Problem is, the kid who would dominate to get 3rd will be staying home with the inability to do so. If the “cream rises to the top”, I think it’s important that only “the cream” is competing at state.

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months. It's by no means perfect. But lets see how it plays out before completely condemming it. My guess is that it will be better than we think, even if it isn't perfect.

I had to live through watching a bunch of seniors I've coached for several years miss out on their senior year of baseball, most of which, weren't getting the opportunity to play in college. Careers ended, without even a chance to swing a bat, or make a pitch. I would have killed for them to get the chance that wrestlers are getting, which is to have somewhat of a season (albeit a very different one) and a chance to compete for a state title. Coming from that perspective, I'm looking at this as a glass half full moment, rather than something terrible.

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1 minute ago, rjs4470 said:

The ability to wrestle back to 3rd is certainly a drawback. And certainly some kids who would likely have placed, won't get a chance. But this has been an unprecedented season and year for all sports. There are baseball, softball, track and tennis athletes that didn't even get to compete last year. 16 boys, and 16 girls basketball teams didn't get a once in lifetime opportunity to play at Rupp arena for a state title last year. Some football teams were forced out of their last games due to Covid cancellations in the playoffs. While this format for wrestling may not be ideal, wrestling has gotten a much better deal than almost every other sport in the last 12 months.

Sure, we are fortunate with when our season starts and ends. We ended less than a month before lockdowns, and our season started after we had 10 months to address covid and formulate a strategy to mitigate risk. That’s about where it ends, though. Surrounding states found a way to keep their state tournaments intact and on time. We couldn’t ask them? We couldn’t see why and how they did it? We couldn’t take what works from other states and implement them here? Is that too much work? We couldn’t have multiple team individual tournaments with more than 12 teams during the season because COVID, but they’re willing to make an exception 3 weekends in a row with no contingency plan if a qualifier gets sick? KHSAA has fumbled (and still fumbling) their way through the season. Exhibit A: we are going to have a semi state, but no idea where. Exhibit B: we are going to have a state tournament, but no idea where.  Semi state is 4 weeks away.

I’m not in the camp of “we should just be grateful to have a season” when the season looks the way it does for no good reason.

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12 minutes ago, LCalum said:

Region 1&2 have 6 of the top 10 at 106 (just the first example of many).   So 4 of them will not qualify.  While region 3&4 only have one kid in the rankings at all and is outside the top 15.  Not sure I’d call that semantics.   The best kid should no doubt qualify for state.  But the best kids will not be represented as they should.   And it has nothing to do with bad draws or losing a match they shouldn’t.   

Check out 160 from 5/6. Total bummer.

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Should let 12 kids into state. The 4 semistate winners get first round bye, and that gives 3rd place kids at semi state the chance to wrestle their way back into discussion. But, it won't happen. I know for a fact Mike "Baron" was proposed an option for state over the phone that allowed 32 man brackets, followed protocol by utilizing 4 different gyms (coaching may or may not have been an issue) and allowed spectators. Second day, the top 8 would have been brought back to finish all in the same gym. Coach Dennis Walls, formerly of Union County, was the one who proposed this idea to Julian Tackett and Mike Barren. They said it was a great idea that could definitely work and in Lexington. What they did was take those four sites and made it into a semi-state and brought on only the top 2 from semi-states. 

We have a BOC that only utilizes athletic directors and pushed out all of the acting wrestling coaches, making it easier for the KHSAA to say screw off, we don't care about wrestling and do it their own way. Have athletic directors that don't have a backbone to stick up for their regions wrestling teams. Every other state tournament has ran normally. Football used Kroger Field. We all know dang well that the Sweet Sixteen will use Rupp Arena, and not be forced to semi-states and only bring in  teams (same ratio they dropped wrestling by) to the actual state tournament. They should be ashamed of themselves.

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7 minutes ago, GentleBeard said:

Sure, we are fortunate with when our season starts and ends. We ended less than a month before lockdowns, and our season started after we had 10 months to address covid and formulate a strategy to mitigate risk. That’s about where it ends, though. Surrounding states found a way to keep their state tournaments intact and on time. We couldn’t ask them? We couldn’t see why and how they did it? We couldn’t take what works from other states and implement them here? Is that too much work? We couldn’t have multiple team individual tournaments with more than 12 teams during the season because COVID, but they’re willing to make an exception 3 weekends in a row with no contingency plan if a qualifier gets sick? KHSAA has fumbled (and still fumbling) their way through the season. Exhibit A: we are going to have a semi state, but no idea where. Exhibit B: we are going to have a state tournament, but no idea where.  Semi state is 4 weeks away.

I’m not in the camp of “we should just be grateful to have a season” when the season looks the way it does for no good reason.

What was the old contingency plan if a wrestler got sick before or couldn't compete at state for some reason?  And unless we have served on the KHSAA Board of Control, we have no idea what they have had to go through, and what limitations have been imposed on them from the BOE/State. The KHSAA gets their marching orders from the State/BOE...they are not an autonomous organization. It's really easy to armchair quarterback and be critical of this whole situation, but unless you know exactly what the cards were that they've been dealt by the folks that they work for, it's not fair to say they've completey whiffed.

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2 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Should let 12 kids into state. The 4 semistate winners get first round bye, and that gives 3rd place kids at semi state the chance to wrestle their way back into discussion. But, it won't happen. I know for a fact Mike "Baron" was proposed an option for state over the phone that allowed 32 man brackets, followed protocol by utilizing 4 different gyms (coaching may or may not have been an issue) and allowed spectators. Second day, the top 8 would have been brought back to finish all in the same gym. Coach Dennis Walls, formerly of Union County, was the one who proposed this idea to Julian Tackett and Mike Barren. They said it was a great idea that could definitely work and in Lexington. What they did was take those four sites and made it into a semi-state and brought on only the top 2 from semi-states. 

That’s like getting a recipe to boil noodles, then forgetting to use water. Good idea, terrible execution.

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