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Wkywrestler

Takeaways from state

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Just to clarify, when you refer to doing something different next year, do you mean reverting back to the "the next available mat" preference or the posting of mat assignments on the jumbo-tron?  Personally, I'd vote for the Track mat assignments (this year's format) w/ the addition of their projection on the jumbo-tron.  The reason why is some of us liked to move from one side of the arena to the next in order to get a better view of the match.  "Assigning" the mats allowed folks plenty of time to move over to that area.  Additionally, I noticed that the front rows were generally open for the fans of whichever teams might be up on that near mat.  Everyone seems pretty respectful of that courtesy too. 

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Here are my take aways from the tournament:

Im still not a fan of the Horse Park.  I know we have come a long way since the Atherton High School gym, while classes were going on Friday, but the atmosphere at Alltech Arena just doesn't fit for me.  For those that remember the civic center in Frankfort, that atmosphere was unbeatable.  It was loud and dark and it felt like the fans were right on top of the mats.  That really needs to be taken into consideration when selecting the next home for the tournament.  I know we are limited by the lack of smaller sized arenas with enough floor space, but we need to get that feeling back.  It was something special that I just don't feel is there anymore.  On top of that the arena is cold, dirty, and the floor is uneven.  I don't like the secluded nature of the arena either.  Unless you already knew the event was going on or happened to glance over while driving by at 70mph on the interstate, you'd be clueless.  The civic center in Frankfort was down town and everyone knew something was going on.

The tournament itself seemed to go very smoothly.  I did have one issue that I saw with one of the even staff.  During the blood round a kid lost.  He was being walked back to to the warm up area by his coach.  The coach's floor pass was tucked into his shirt.  That is the moment the staff member chose to go over and confront the coach about his credentials.  He had been let on the floor and he had just been on the mat coaching, so it was probably a safe bet that he was supposed to be there.  The coach wasn't pleased, but the staff member was a little more of a jerk than he had to be.  The coach pulled out his pass and went on his way.  The the staff member went over to the head table and thought it was funny that he got to mess with the coach and that the coach was angry.  I understand rules and all, but that was absolutely the worst time for the staff member to flaunt his authority.  I understand that a lot of the event staff don't know the sport , but if they don't know the gravity of that point in the tournament they don't need to be on the floor.  Overall though, it was a well ran tournament. 

I have no complaints about the officiating besides the typical grumblings of a coach who feels his wrestlers should get every call lol.  I would, however, like to see two officials on the mats during the blood round.  There is a lot of emotion going on at that time and a second official would help to keep the peace during stoppages and between matches.

My biggest issues were with the Khsaa's promotion of the sport, the presentation of the awards, the pomp and circumstance of the finals.  The KHSAA does basically the bare minimum for wrestling.  They can't even present complete or accurate records of past state tournaments on their web site.  I would love to see some displays around the arena during the state tournament about our sport, especially the history.  They could present statistics and highlight past events, champions, officials, coaches, administrators, and teams.  Also the awards presentations seems kind of haphazard and thrown together.  It would great to have something on the screen about the recipients, and when presenting the past championship teams it would be nice to introduce the members.  It would also be great to do more for the face off and finals matches....lights, smoke, etc.  

 

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       The problem with statistics from past events is that KHSAA does not have them.  They only have complete records from 1970 to the present.  I have been trying to tally all the information for over 20 years now.  I have gotten records from coach Sellers (Danville) and Coach Wells (Caldwell County), and some individual teams from several other coaches.  But I am nowhere near complete for the 60's.  I have all of the state champions but not all the placers and almost none of the state qualifiers that did not place in the 1960s. 

If anyone out there has that information or just partial information, I would be grateful to get it.  When (if) I complete the history I will give it to KHSAA.(I gave what I had to Julian Tackett about 10 years ago)

Any coach who would like their individual school state qualifier history I will gladly send it to you.  I think it is important for teams to have this info to promote wrestling at their respective school. 

 

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32 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

       The problem with statistics from past events is that KHSAA does not have them.  They only have complete records from 1970 to the present.  I have been trying to tally all the information for over 20 years now.  I have gotten records from coach Sellers (Danville) and Coach Wells (Caldwell County), and some individual teams from several other coaches.  But I am nowhere near complete for the 60's.  I have all of the state champions but not all the placers and almost none of the state qualifiers that did not place in the 1960s. 

If anyone out there has that information or just partial information, I would be grateful to get it.  When (if) I complete the history I will give it to KHSAA.(I gave what I had to Julian Tackett about 10 years ago)

Any coach who would like their individual school state qualifier history I will gladly send it to you.  I think it is important for teams to have this info to promote wrestling at their respective school. 

 

what years in the 60s do you have? I have I think 67-69. I will have to go through some boxes.

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I only have partials of 1964(1st year)-1970

I would be grateful for anything you have during this time. A lot of the time I only have the last name of some of the participants during this time. 

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On 2/18/2020 at 1:35 PM, take em to the mat said:

And there will be 40,000 plus in attendance

And if you have never been you are missing out. Your hairs stand on end.

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6 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

       The problem with statistics from past events is that KHSAA does not have them.  They only have complete records from 1970 to the present.  I have been trying to tally all the information for over 20 years now.  I have gotten records from coach Sellers (Danville) and Coach Wells (Caldwell County), and some individual teams from several other coaches.  But I am nowhere near complete for the 60's.  I have all of the state champions but not all the placers and almost none of the state qualifiers that did not place in the 1960s. 

If anyone out there has that information or just partial information, I would be grateful to get it.  When (if) I complete the history I will give it to KHSAA.(I gave what I had to Julian Tackett about 10 years ago)

Any coach who would like their individual school state qualifier history I will gladly send it to you.  I think it is important for teams to have this info to promote wrestling at their respective school. 

 

I have started working on compiling that information as well. In addition I have been trying to collect photographs of past champions. I would love to see what you have and know what you are missing so I could better focus my research.  I would also like to find pre 1964 information.  There was wrestling and state tournaments in Kentucky before the KHSAA got involved.

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It amazes me just how little the khsaa does for wrestling. They basically let ranger and a few others run the entire sport for them. When ranger steps down, there will be no rankings.

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Just now, 385 said:

It amazes me just how little the khsaa does for wrestling. They basically let ranger and a few others run the entire sport for them. When ranger steps down, there will be no rankings.

Rankings will be easier if everyone posted their results each week to Trackwrestling. Rankwrestlers.com does a good job of compiling rankings based on head to head, win percentages, previous years state results, etc. only if each team updates their results. The problem is, you have old outdated tournament formats not ran on track and other teams who choose to "hide" their results until regionals.

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17 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I only have partials of 1964(1st year)-1970

I would be grateful for anything you have during this time. A lot of the time I only have the last name of some of the participants during this time. 

Let me see what I have and get with you

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10 minutes ago, 385 said:

It amazes me just how little the khsaa does for wrestling. They basically let ranger and a few others run the entire sport for them. When ranger steps down, there will be no rankings.

Outside of the big sports, what the KHSAA does for wrestling is pretty on par with every other non major sport, and in some cases is even more.  Could they do more?  Absolutely.  But the KHSAA is not singling out wrestling as being not important, or treating it like a stepchild.  The KHSAA doesn't do rankings for any sport (outside of football where they do an RPI for playoff purposes).  The rankings you see are all done by outside sources.

 

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38 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

Outside of the big sports, what the KHSAA does for wrestling is pretty on par with every other non major sport, and in some cases is even more.  Could they do more?  Absolutely.  But the KHSAA is not singling out wrestling as being not important, or treating it like a stepchild.  The KHSAA doesn't do rankings for any sport (outside of football where they do an RPI for playoff purposes).  The rankings you see are all done by outside sources.

 

Agreed. I think they do a little more for wrestling IMO..... They purchased with KWOA and KYWCA  finals mat which was something we have asked for for how long instead of the one mat which was always a crap shoot which color. Now we have a black mat with the 3 logos. 

 

KHSAA could do more, but they would have to do more across the board. It takes $$ to do that. 

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1 hour ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

The problem is, you have old outdated tournament formats not ran on track and other teams who choose to "hide" their results until regionals.

Why do you find this to be such a travesty?  I personally don't care one way or another. There are several reasons for the 1st. (1) Some schools have shoddy wifi in their gyms (2) extra cost of track (3) Able to run a smooth tourney without track and have to learn a new system. 

As for "hiding their results" Why does it concern anyone? If you do post great if you don't Oh well.  I personally would/will post my results just for that reason "who cares". Coaches have much more important things to think about rather than worry if "Joe Shmoo" knows the results of the Kangaroo Tournament in Mudlick KY. 

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1 hour ago, halfhalfhalf said:

Agreed. I think they do a little more for wrestling IMO..... They purchased with KWOA and KYWCA  finals mat which was something we have asked for for how long instead of the one mat which was always a crap shoot which color. Now we have a black mat with the 3 logos. 

 

KHSAA could do more, but they would have to do more across the board. It takes $$ to do that. 

I think many look at what the KHSAA does in comparison to what other states do, which really isn't fair.  Wrestling is far bigger in other states, and it's logical to think that their tournaments are bigger deals, held in bigger, nicer venues.  But if you think it's a "The Khsaa doesn't care about wrestling issue", I encourage you to check out other sports in the state.  The state softball tourney was for years held in a beer league softball complex with temporary fences on fields that didn't fit the sport. Tennis doesn't even have officials at matches....calls are made by players on the honor system.  Any idea where the state golf tournament is held and how to buy tickets?  I agree, the state tourney needs some work.  But it's gotten better every year over the last 7 or so that I've been around.  We would be taken more seriously if we lost the "no one cares about wrestling", "woe is us" attitude that is often displayed.  You cannot compare wrestling with what is done for Basketball or Football.  It's not an apples to apples comparision.

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 I think it all depends on how you are looking at things. Personally.....

As a wrestler I didn't care about the pomp and celebration.  Just give me my medal in a back room as long as I know where I placed is all that mattered.  Heck the medals we got back in the stone age were a little bigger than a half dollar.  Not even sure where my state medals are, last time I found them they were in my fish tank. 

As a coach I want to see the kids get a little credit for what they accomplishe. A little fan fair helps the sport get bigger when younger kids see what is in store for them when they reach the higher levels. 

As a parent.  Shoot I wanted the whole dog and pony show I want GOO Jrs to get all the fan fair and notoriety.  Give them medals as big as their head and celebrate with a ticker tape parade. 

Can it get better? YES, but lets not get to greedy to soon.  I still remember my days at Atherton high school wrestling on Friday when school was still in session and Atherton not having a wrestling team.  We moved up when we went to the Dungeon, and probably took a small step back going to Alltech, but we are still going in the right direction again.  Keep the good ideas coming but don't expect huge changes overnight. 

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26 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

 I think it all depends on how you are looking at things. Personally.....

As a wrestler I didn't care about the pomp and celebration.  Just give me my medal in a back room as long as I know where I placed is all that mattered.  Heck the medals we got back in the stone age were a little bigger than a half dollar.  Not even sure where my state medals are, last time I found them they were in my fish tank. 

As a coach I want to see the kids get a little credit for what they accomplishe. A little fan fair helps the sport get bigger when younger kids see what is in store for them when they reach the higher levels. 

As a parent.  Shoot I wanted the whole dog and pony show I want GOO Jrs to get all the fan fair and notoriety.  Give them medals as big as their head and celebrate with a ticker tape parade. 

Can it get better? YES, but lets not get to greedy to soon.  I still remember my days at Atherton high school wrestling on Friday when school was still in session and Atherton not having a wrestling team.  We moved up when we went to the Dungeon, and probably took a small step back going to Alltech, but we are still going in the right direction again.  Keep the good ideas coming but don't expect huge changes overnight. 

Good points. I've always felt these things matter way more to the parents than to the participants.  They want all of these things done for the people that care about them the least.  Of course these are the same parents who complain about participation trophies, so who knows.

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56 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

I think many look at what the KHSAA does in comparison to what other states do, which really isn't fair.  Wrestling is far bigger in other states, and it's logical to think that their tournaments are bigger deals, held in bigger, nicer venues.  But if you think it's a "The Khsaa doesn't care about wrestling issue", I encourage you to check out other sports in the state.  The state softball tourney was for years held in a beer league softball complex with temporary fences on fields that didn't fit the sport. Tennis doesn't even have officials at matches....calls are made by players on the honor system.  Any idea where the state golf tournament is held and how to buy tickets?  I agree, the state tourney needs some work.  But it's gotten better every year over the last 7 or so that I've been around.  We would be taken more seriously if we lost the "no one cares about wrestling", "woe is us" attitude that is often displayed.  You cannot compare wrestling with what is done for Basketball or Football.  It's not an apples to apples comparision.

I am very in tune with what other states do for their state tournaments. I am actually going to another states tournament this weekend. I have seen some of the BS they have done with other sports. Contracts are in play unfortunately regardless if they are good or crap. But it is also not fair to compare what smaller sports do to wrestling either.  

Personally, I don't think the no one cares about wrestling thing comes into play. Yes, we all say it... but at the end of the day KHSAA does this for all sports. I.e. Medals being different from Regions and State. Ribbons and etc.

 

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3 hours ago, rjs4470 said:

Good points. I've always felt these things matter way more to the parents than to the participants.  They want all of these things done for the people that care about them the least.  Of course these are the same parents who complain about participation trophies, so who knows.

I agree with your point in regards to participation awards. However, the parents are the ones that need sold on this sport.  Marketing if you will??? Marketing that will reach others. Just good enough or thats the way we've always done it. Simply isn't good enough.

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19 minutes ago, take em to the mat said:

I agree with your point in regards to participation awards. However, the parents are the ones that need sold on this sport.  Marketing if you will??? Marketing that will reach others. Just good enough or thats the way we've always done it. Simply isn't good enough.

I would agree that you need to constantly evolve to keep growing. The “selling” however, needs to happen at the lower levels.  I’d guess most in attendance at State are families and parents that are already sold on wrestling as a sport.  Keeping the old blood is important.  To grow, we need new blood.  And the “khsaa hates wrestling talk” isn’t exactly a great selling point.

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58 minutes ago, rjs4470 said:

I would agree that you need to constantly evolve to keep growing. The “selling” however, needs to happen at the lower levels.  I’d guess most in attendance at State are families and parents that are already sold on wrestling as a sport.  Keeping the old blood is important.  To grow, we need new blood.  And the “khsaa hates wrestling talk” isn’t exactly a great selling point.

That's a valid point. And you are 100% correct. However, I do believe it's a trickle down. Positive experience at all levels. Hard to get a family unfamiliar with wrestling to try it. Word of mouth is a powerful tool. You'd think the KHSAA would love for the sport to increase. They should see those $$$ flashing at any growth potential. 

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11 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Rankings will be easier if everyone posted their results each week to Trackwrestling. Rankwrestlers.com does a good job of compiling rankings based on head to head, win percentages, previous years state results, etc. only if each team updates their results. The problem is, you have old outdated tournament formats not ran on track and other teams who choose to "hide" their results until regionals.

KHSAA needs to make posting results mandatory like they have in football.  It would make preseeding tournaments much easier.

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8 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Can it get better? YES, but lets not get to greedy to soon.  I still remember my days at Atherton high school wrestling on Friday when school was still in session and Atherton not having a wrestling team.  We moved up when we went to the Dungeon, and probably took a small step back going to Alltech, but we are still going in the right direction again.  Keep the good ideas coming but don't expect huge changes overnight. 

Alltech was a step forward in terms of growth, but a step back in terms of atmosphere.  Atherton was small potatoes but man was it electric.  Standing room only, packed in like sardines, super loud with the crowd banging and stomping on those wood bleachers.  The civic center took that a step further...it was basically a bowl and it felt like the crowd was right on top of the mats...it was dark and loud...noise makers and glow sticks everywhere...the fan bases were super close to each other and it got rowdy in there...it was dark for the finals with a spotlight on the mat...i saw orange for a week from that old Frankfort High mat...what we've gained in size we've lost in atmosphere

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I went to the TN state tournament this weekend and a few takeaways from what they are doing that need to be looked at.

1. When announcing each finals match give them a highlight. I.e. region champ, placed 4th at 120 last year and 2nd in 2018. 

2. Use the video board to highlight the medalist. I have attached an example. 83930920_10212967657426718_2302869697843953664_n.jpg.d2242c12febdbbd8d6cd14b22ab310ca.jpg

 

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On 2/20/2020 at 8:23 PM, KWR said:

KHSAA needs to make posting results mandatory like they have in football.  It would make preseeding tournaments much easier.

I'm not 100% up on track but how would this make it easier to pre-seed?  Do you expect the person running the tourney to look up all the criteria? 

I have run several tourneys in my day.  Its easy to pre-seed.  Coaches send roster with records. Pre-seed according to record then go. Get changes when coaches show up adjust, take 20 minutes for coaches meeting then go. 

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3 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I'm not 100% up on track but how would this make it easier to pre-seed?  Do you expect the person running the tourney to look up all the criteria? 

spread former medalists out IF they win the region seed. If not randomly drawn in. 

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