Sign in to follow this  
DrBaker

State Duals 2020

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

Then you don't understand the split.  The split is so that the small schools can compete with the large schools.  If you did not split the event then even fewer schools would even compete in the small school regionals.  

You don't see the all A classic champion in basketball playing the state champion.  Or for a better example you don't see the 3A football champion playing the 4,5 or 6 A champion in Football.  

It's all about expanding the sport of wrestling, the more kids you have qualifying and having success the more kids who will actually play the sport.  I personally was against the expansion of the state tourney years ago to the 32 man bracket but it worked more kids qualified and more teams appeared in the state and rosters expanded. I was proven wrong. YES I admit it. 

Except small school won just as often if not more before the split.   And the small school champion almost every year since the split would and / or has beaten the big school champ.  Many of the top small schools stay competitive with the top big schools.  
 

I’m not sure i understand the part about if you didn’t split the event fewer small schools would compete in regionals? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Can't be scared of some good competition. Maybe if JC chose to accept the challenge last year it would've better "prepared them for state" and they would've narrowed the gap on that 80.5 point difference between them and Union.

You couldn’t be originally from Union County. There’s some good people out there but you act like a total jerk. What gives?

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, LCalum said:

Except small school won just as often if not more before the split.   And the small school champion almost every year since the split would and / or has beaten the big school champ.  Many of the top small schools stay competitive with the top big schools.  
 

I’m not sure i understand the part about if you didn’t split the event fewer small schools would compete in regionals? 

I was referring to the small school regional qualifier.  I know some schools already do not participate in the regional because they know they can't compete and would rather go to an individual tourney that same weekend.  The same can be said about the large schools but it happens more often with the small schools because they don't have a full team.  Maybe only 7-9 spots filled.

Its a decision the coach has to make for his team.  Do you go to duals qualifier with 7 kids and lose every dual and your best kids get a few matches or go to an individual tourney where your best kids will get several matches and a guarantee 1 or 2 quality matches. I have been on the small school side where we had 1 or 2 good kids and when we wrestled duals they did not send their best kid to wrestle our best 2 so they could rest up for the next dual.  One year wrestling Larue we wrestled 2 out of the 6 matches before Larue forfeited out because they had already won the dual because of our forfeits. 

Just to keep the record straight.  Champions from 1990-2012 (2 events cancelled for bad weather) 14 won by big school 7 by small (Sheldon Clark 1, Larue 5, Union 1) 16 big school runner up 5 small school runner up.  Scott 2, Sheldon Clark 1, Wayne co 1, Union Co. 1. So only 5 small schools were competitive with the large schools during that era. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

I was referring to the small school regional qualifier.  I know some schools already do not participate in the regional because they know they can't compete and would rather go to an individual tourney that same weekend.  The same can be said about the large schools but it happens more often with the small schools because they don't have a full team.  Maybe only 7-9 spots filled.

Its a decision the coach has to make for his team.  Do you go to duals qualifier with 7 kids and lose every dual and your best kids get a few matches or go to an individual tourney where your best kids will get several matches and a guarantee 1 or 2 quality matches. I have been on the small school side where we had 1 or 2 good kids and when we wrestled duals they did not send their best kid to wrestle our best 2 so they could rest up for the next dual.  One year wrestling Larue we wrestled 2 out of the 6 matches before Larue forfeited out because they had already won the dual because of our forfeits. 

Just to keep the record straight.  Champions from 1990-2012 (2 events cancelled for bad weather) 14 won by big school 7 by small (Sheldon Clark 1, Larue 5, Union 1) 16 big school runner up 5 small school runner up.  Scott 2, Sheldon Clark 1, Wayne co 1, Union Co. 1. So only 5 small schools were competitive with the large schools during that era. 

There was no distinction between small and big school until 2001.  In the early years i believe LaRue was one of if not the smallest school with a wrestling program.  Since 2001 more small schools have won than large.    The distinction between small school and big school is just a list starting with the biggest school by enrollment down to the smallest school by enrollment cut directly in half.  The biggest growth in the sport with new programs has been at the small school level so you can’t just compare those old days when there were probably only 10 small schools with teams.  With woodford being on the smaller end of large schools back then they very likely would have been in the bottom half of schools by enrollment at around 1200 when you had schools with 2000 students back then and LaRue sitting at 750.  Those numbers get real bad if woodford is a small school In the 90’s.   Simply staTing you can’t just take the schools that are now considered big and just apply that list to what happened 30 years ago.  
 

to your point that what’s best for the sport is best for everyone, i agree.  But it’s always implied that big schools did a favor for the small schools or that the small schools wanted to be separated so they “had a chance” and that simply isn’t true.  The campfire stories in some areas of the state are that it was the big schools who pushed to separate state duals.   Either way there were several small schools (whom you’ve named above) that did not want it to be separated.  Since 2001 when there was a designation of big vs small i believe the tally would be something to the effect of 12 wins for small and 5 for big (if my memory of Unions success since the split is correct).  I sure do wish we could have seen who would have won those two years there was bad weather.   I guess we can only speculate.  
 

my opinion which means very little to most and even less to others is that small school champ wrestling the big school champ at the end of the day is good for the sport and would like to see that be part of the event instead of just an option.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, LCalum said:

There was no distinction between small and big school until 2001.  In the early years i believe LaRue was one of if not the smallest school with a wrestling program.  Since 2001 more small schools have won than large.    The distinction between small school and big school is just a list starting with the biggest school by enrollment down to the smallest school by enrollment cut directly in half.  The biggest growth in the sport with new programs has been at the small school level so you can’t just compare those old days when there were probably only 10 small schools with teams.  With woodford being on the smaller end of large schools back then they very likely would have been in the bottom half of schools by enrollment at around 1200 when you had schools with 2000 students back then and LaRue sitting at 750.  Those numbers get real bad if woodford is a small school In the 90’s.   Simply staTing you can’t just take the schools that are now considered big and just apply that list to what happened 30 years ago.  
 

to your point that what’s best for the sport is best for everyone, i agree.  But it’s always implied that big schools did a favor for the small schools or that the small schools wanted to be separated so they “had a chance” and that simply isn’t true.  The campfire stories in some areas of the state are that it was the big schools who pushed to separate state duals.   Either way there were several small schools (whom you’ve named above) that did not want it to be separated.  Since 2001 when there was a designation of big vs small i believe the tally would be something to the effect of 12 wins for small and 5 for big (if my memory of Unions success since the split is correct).  I sure do wish we could have seen who would have won those two years there was bad weather.   I guess we can only speculate.  
 

my opinion which means very little to most and even less to others is that small school champ wrestling the big school champ at the end of the day is good for the sport and would like to see that be part of the event instead of just an option.  

Very well put. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if I may, let me stir the pot a bit. Let’s just say Union Co was a large school and had the exact same success that they’ve earned as small school. What would the perception be if they were calling out the small school champ? It would look ridiculous right? If the 2 winning teams want to meet up on a Wednesday night after the State Duals, that’s great. This allows both teams and their fans to enjoy winning their respective state dual championship. It would also sell a bunch of tickets and both teams could hype it up and share the ticket sales, if they wanted to. Just a thought..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

So if I may, let me stir the pot a bit. Let’s just say Union Co was a large school and had the exact same success that they’ve earned as small school. What would the perception be if they were calling out the small school champ? It would look ridiculous right? If the 2 winning teams want to meet up on a Wednesday night after the State Duals, that’s great. This allows both teams and their fans to enjoy winning their respective state dual championship. It would also sell a bunch of tickets and both teams could hype it up and share the ticket sales, if they wanted to. Just a thought..

A large school calling out a small school would look ridiculous. I don’t think Union ever called anyone out. I think it was a more casual thing. “Hey, you wanna rassle? Nah, I’m good”. Its us fans that were disappointed and wanted to see it. A dual of Union and Johnson Central will probably never happen, unless it’s at a site in the middle. Neither team can really afford to drive that far. Not sure about Larue or Walton Verona. Union vs Christian hasn’t happened in years (1.5 hours apart). Union vs Ryle will happen next weekend. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, DrBaker said:

A large school calling out a small school would look ridiculous. I don’t think Union ever called anyone out. I think it was a more casual thing. “Hey, you wanna rassle? Nah, I’m good”. Its us fans that were disappointed and wanted to see it. A dual of Union and Johnson Central will probably never happen, unless it’s at a site in the middle. Neither team can really afford to drive that far. Not sure about Larue or Walton Verona. Union vs Christian hasn’t happened in years (1.5 hours apart). Union vs Ryle will happen next weekend. 

I truly meant “calling out” in a respectful manner. I didn’t mean to sound like UC’s coaches or kids were being disrespectful. If it came across that way, I apologize. Just used the term in the general since. Moving on, as a spectator, I get it. You want to see who is really the overall #1. And we achieved this for many years before this whole big school/small school divide. People like to attribute the growing numbers in our sport to things like the big school/small school split, they like to believe it is because we made the KHSAA boat loads of money by having a 32 man state tournament. Truth of the matter, we got lucky and just happened to make those changes as the UFC and MMA were becoming extremely popular. I believe our growth would have happened without making 2 divisions and watering down our state tournament. We weren’t and aren’t big enough to keep this up. If a school doesn’t have but 7-8 kids, train up those kids the best you can and go for individual titles, your clearly not a dual team. Why make a separate division so people can feel good about themselves? It was ridiculous years ago and it’s ridiculous now. The real world doesn’t operate this way and neither should we. Oh, I can’t promote to a higher position, let’s force the boss to create a new position just for me. It’s just nonsense. Wow. I got a bit off topic, but it’s still relevant to the conversation. Jumping off the soapbox now. Lol

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nike Man said:

I truly meant “calling out” in a respectful manner. I didn’t mean to sound like UC’s coaches or kids were being disrespectful. If it came across that way, I apologize. Just used the term in the general since. Moving on, as a spectator, I get it. You want to see who is really the overall #1. And we achieved this for many years before this whole big school/small school divide. People like to attribute the growing numbers in our sport to things like the big school/small school split, they like to believe it is because we made the KHSAA boat loads of money by having a 32 man state tournament. Truth of the matter, we got lucky and just happened to make those changes as the UFC and MMA were becoming extremely popular. I believe our growth would have happened without making 2 divisions and watering down our state tournament. We weren’t and aren’t big enough to keep this up. If a school doesn’t have but 7-8 kids, train up those kids the best you can and go for individual titles, your clearly not a dual team. Why make a separate division so people can feel good about themselves? It was ridiculous years ago and it’s ridiculous now. The real world doesn’t operate this way and neither should we. Oh, I can’t promote to a higher position, let’s force the boss to create a new position just for me. It’s just nonsense. Wow. I got a bit off topic, but it’s still relevant to the conversation. Jumping off the soapbox now. Lol

Agreed ha ha ha.    My only point was there are several small schools who also didn’t want the split and want there to be a “True” champion as there is at individual state.   You can still have best small schools and best big school.   To your other question, about union being big and challenging small schools.  If you think the small schools would feel bullied, hell union has been beaten on us for several years as is.   I truly believe the small schools who have finished 2nd over the last decade or so would welcome the opportunity to wrestle the best big school either way.   Maybe I’m wrong.  Ultimately we all want to see good hard wrestling and grow the sport.   Competition and rivalries and all that just add to it.  

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Nike Man said:

I truly meant “calling out” in a respectful manner. I didn’t mean to sound like UC’s coaches or kids were being disrespectful. If it came across that way, I apologize. Just used the term in the general since. Moving on, as a spectator, I get it. You want to see who is really the overall #1. And we achieved this for many years before this whole big school/small school divide. People like to attribute the growing numbers in our sport to things like the big school/small school split, they like to believe it is because we made the KHSAA boat loads of money by having a 32 man state tournament. Truth of the matter, we got lucky and just happened to make those changes as the UFC and MMA were becoming extremely popular. I believe our growth would have happened without making 2 divisions and watering down our state tournament. We weren’t and aren’t big enough to keep this up. If a school doesn’t have but 7-8 kids, train up those kids the best you can and go for individual titles, your clearly not a dual team. Why make a separate division so people can feel good about themselves? It was ridiculous years ago and it’s ridiculous now. The real world doesn’t operate this way and neither should we. Oh, I can’t promote to a higher position, let’s force the boss to create a new position just for me. It’s just nonsense. Wow. I got a bit off topic, but it’s still relevant to the conversation. Jumping off the soapbox now. Lol

I think it works. It gives teams a chance to see other teams across the state. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The top ranked teams are: 

Big - 1) Christian 2) Ryle 3) Campbell 4) Woodford - Johnson Central will prob move up when Williams enters the rankings. 

Small- 1) Union 2) Larue 3) DeSales 4) Walton Verona

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2020 at 3:58 PM, ukpridewrestler11 said:

Can't be scared of some good competition. Maybe if JC chose to accept the challenge last year it would've better "prepared them for state" and they would've narrowed the gap on that 80.5 point difference between them and Union.

First thing you need to recognize here is the fact that JC doesn’t wrestle year round like some teams mentioned. We wrestle and our boys play football and they’re good at it, real good at it. So we don’t step on a mat until the second week of December which by my math gives union a pretty hefty head start on the season wouldn’t you agree considering playoff results? I’ve heard from a Great source and by great source I mean you can bet on it, JC will wrestle anyone in Kentucky if that team would also play us in a football game. Stay humble but act quick as the schedule will fill up fast. Stay humble.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Louden Swain said:

First thing you need to recognize here is the fact that JC doesn’t wrestle year round like some teams mentioned. We wrestle and our boys play football and they’re good at it, real good at it. So we don’t step on a mat until the second week of December which by my math gives union a pretty hefty head start on the season wouldn’t you agree considering playoff results? I’ve heard from a Great source and by great source I mean you can bet on it, JC will wrestle anyone in Kentucky if that team would also play us in a football game. Stay humble but act quick as the schedule will fill up fast. Stay humble.

Unions coach said he’d take the challenge. Jc is great in football and they’d kill us. No shame in losing to the best. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK.....Just got this word from Johnson Central. JC has 3 football games open this upcoming season and will pay all expenses { travel and hotel } for Union Co to travel to Johnson Central. JC will return the home game the following season to Union. They will trade home wrestling matches in the reverse home and away order. A few years ago JC lost a state  place winner that transferred to  Union Co. Many things were rumored such as jobs and a place to live. Neither Coach Matney or I  believe all this actually occurred but it cooled a very close relationship with Union County. I think he absolutely likes Robert Ervin. And is still very close to the Walls family. BTW the JC HS wrestling team takes on Parkersburg South and Point Plesant HS tomorrow after having wrestled Grundy Va twice already.. If you know anything about wrestling that tells you JC is not afraid to wrestle anyone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Louden Swain said:

OK.....Just got this word from Johnson Central. JC has 3 football games open this upcoming season and will pay all expenses { travel and hotel } for Union Co to travel to Johnson Central. JC will return the home game the following season to Union. They will trade home wrestling matches in the reverse home and away order. A few years ago JC lost a state  place winner that transferred to  Union Co. Many things were rumored such as jobs and a place to live. Neither Coach Matney or I  believe all this actually occurred but it cooled a very close relationship with Union County. I think he absolutely likes Robert Ervin. And is still very close to the Walls family. BTW the JC HS wrestling team takes on Parkersburg South and Point Plesant HS tomorrow after having wrestled Grundy Va twice already.. If you know anything about wrestling that tells you JC is not afraid to wrestle anyone

Then just wrestle Union or whomever is the champ assuming both schools win  their perspective divisions. You've answered all concerns. BTW I'm sure trinity and st x would play you if they have openings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This entire thread is some kind of show off who is the biggest of badest. Can we just be productive. I wish all teams the best at the State Duals. Hope everyone, especially us spectators & coaches, can stay respectful and supportive to all wrestlers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wrestlingfan03 said:

This entire thread is some kind of show off who is the biggest of badest. Can we just be productive. I wish all teams the best at the State Duals. Hope everyone, especially us spectators & coaches, can stay respectful and supportive to all wrestlers. 

exactly! wrestle the best to be the best. Well put wf3

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It started out as a regular discussion and got off track. As always. I really just wanted to get some guys talking. How about predictions? 
small: Union over Walton Verona

large: Christian over Ryle 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, DrBaker said:

It started out as a regular discussion and got off track. As always. I really just wanted to get some guys talking. How about predictions? 
small: Union over Walton Verona

large: Christian over Ryle 

It's all about competition! Everyone gets focused on in state competition. Realize this is much more to some of these kids. It could be an opportunity to go to college . They may not have an opportunity otherwise. Get your kids the best comp you can. Find opponents thats capable of defeating your kids. Challenge your kids weekly.  The worse  you can do as a coach is never challenge your kids. Dr Baker these forums can become like a drunk driver. Never know what turn it may take. haha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon Kenton will be a tough out.  They have numbers and can adjust their lineup to get the matchups they like. 

Large school semifinals 

Ryle, SK, Johnson, Christian. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Chris Duke said:

Simon Kenton will be a tough out.  They have numbers and can adjust their lineup to get the matchups they like. 

Large school semifinals 

Ryle, SK, Johnson, Christian. 

Can't argue with your picks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Louden Swain said:

OK.....Just got this word from Johnson Central. JC has 3 football games open this upcoming season and will pay all expenses { travel and hotel } for Union Co to travel to Johnson Central. JC will return the home game the following season to Union. They will trade home wrestling matches in the reverse home and away order. A few years ago JC lost a state  place winner that transferred to  Union Co. Many things were rumored such as jobs and a place to live. Neither Coach Matney or I  believe all this actually occurred but it cooled a very close relationship with Union County. I think he absolutely likes Robert Ervin. And is still very close to the Walls family. BTW the JC HS wrestling team takes on Parkersburg South and Point Plesant HS tomorrow after having wrestled Grundy Va twice already.. If you know anything about wrestling that tells you JC is not afraid to wrestle anyone

The Parkersburg S 220 is a bad, bad dude. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what in the world does Johnson central not wanting to wrestle union county have to do with football. A Johnson central vs union county football game is a completely different topic. I understand a lot of guys play both sports for JC but still? You may whoop us in wrestling but we can whoop you in football. Okay Covington catholic would probably put 100 Points up on JC in basketball but that has nothing With wrestling. I don’t understand what kind of point you are trying to make, especially since this is a wrestling forum about the state duals

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this