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DrBaker

Region 1 preseason

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4 hours ago, DrBaker said:

 I do think Union should be entered on the big school side this year. 

Why? 

They are a small school.  Small school and large school are determined by number of students at your school, not how good of a team you are. 

you don't see Graham in Ohio going from Division II to Division I. 

So NO I don't think it should be mandatory that the large and small school winners wrestle for the overall title. 

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I don't really follow the state duals so who supposedly ran from Who? I don't know who won small and large school. 

If you say Union, then that is a laugh.  They have nothing to prove at state duals it ultimately means nothing since it is not the official state title. 

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2 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Why? 

They are a small school.  Small school and large school are determined by number of students at your school, not how good of a team you are. 

you don't see Graham in Ohio going from Division II to Division I. 

So NO I don't think it should be mandatory that the large and small school winners wrestle for the overall title. 

Why- because they they dominated the small schools last year and they would want the challenge. I do understand why they have divisions. In the case of how small KY is, it's kind of useless. And, I do think it should be mandatory. Fans pay money to watch the best teams wrestle and didn't get to see it. 

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1 hour ago, DrBaker said:

Why- because they they dominated the small schools last year and they would want the challenge. I do understand why they have divisions. In the case of how small KY is, it's kind of useless. And, I do think it should be mandatory. Fans pay money to watch the best teams wrestle and didn't get to see it. 

Easy for you to have that perspective when your a Union Co fan. Imagine being a Johnson Central fan watching that team winning their first State Duals with kids and parents excited to turn around and possibly lose to Union in a dual where there is nothing to gain. There isn’t an “overall State Duals Championship” so there is no reason for the dual. Coach Matney made a great decision for his program. On a side note, Union could have their hands full with Paducah Tillman on the small school side this year. 

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3 minutes ago, JB said:

Easy for you to have that perspective when your a Union Co fan. Imagine being a Johnson Central fan watching that team winning their first State Duals with kids and parents excited to turn around and possibly lose to Union in a dual where there is nothing to gain. There isn’t an “overall State Duals Championship” so there is no reason for the dual. Coach Matney made a great decision for his program. On a side note, Union could have their hands full with Paducah Tillman on the small school side this year. 

I don't disagree with that point of view at all. I'm looking forward to a dual against Tilghman on Jan 17th. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 4:29 PM, DrBaker said:

Fans pay money to watch the best teams wrestle and didn't get to see it. 

Most fans pay to see their kids and their team wrestle there are very few there to just see wrestling with no dog in the fight.  

Remember this is not a KHSAA sanctioned event.  This is a coaches association event.  If the coaches want to make the tournament to where the two champions wrestle all they have to do is change the rules.  Remember when this was 1st developed Union was not the top dog it was Woodford/Campbell/Trinity,Ryle,and St. X..  The small schools wanted their own division because they were tired of being beat up by the large school.  

The coaches wanted separate titles, if they want a single title then they need to change the rule. 

This is kind of like saying Brock Ervin should have wrestled the champion of an upper wt. class because there was no competition at his weight. 

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I disagree with you GOO. Region 1 teams weren’t complaining.... not too long ago it was two small schools going to state duals from region 1 when it was 1 division. We got our butts handed to us by JC and other large schools. Not one complaint about it from coaches or kids.

the small school split actually was when union won the duals and larue won it the year prior.

Personally, I am for whatever grows wrestling KY. So the split made sense to grow the sport, but I was against it because I personally liked wrestling the larger schools. But I can set aside personal opinions for growing the sport in KY.

 

I do think large/small winners should wrestle. You’re there and why not test yourselves against the best. 

I had no issue with JC not wrestling Union last yr as it was my understanding they were banged up pretty good. Gotta do what’s best for your team, but if health isn’t an issue, then wrestle. 
 

just my opinion which isn’t worth much. 
 

 

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I personally don't understand the competition angle in dual tourneys.  Wrestling is not like team sports where you compete your team against another.  Wresting is an individual sport where your individuals gather points for the team.  There is a possibility to not see one good match between two teams because they either don't match up or they bump them around. 

But I am also not a fan of dual tourneys.  I want to see the individuals not the team with bumping and not trying to get pinned and the such. And if you wrestled Larue in the past then you would get forfeits at when the dual winner was determined.  I watched Larue forfeit the last 3 wt. classes 3 matches in a row because they had already won the dual.  Where is the competition in that? 

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I for one love the team aspect. I was never good enough to beat Joe Carr, but I could do my part to beat someone in my weight class for a team win. I really do like the split. It gives teams a chance to compete. Its rare that a small school can hang with St X, Trinity, and Ryle, but Union is that exception. I think exemptions to the rules can happen. Why not bump Union up and let Tilghman, Walton Verona, and Larue battle it out for a small school title?

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This would just muddy the water.  Lets go the other directions. Why not allow weaker large schools go down to the small school division so they can compete?

People just want to see the anomaly of a small school being the top dog.  If the roles were reversed and Johnson Central had been the dominant team for several years no one would be complaining about the champions not wrestling. 

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Small schools have always wrestled the big schools as far as I know none have backed down from a challenge. This year Union, Tilghman and Walton Verona should compete with the best big schools. 

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I really wish I could understand your thought process on this.  Allowing those teams to compete might take out some of the big schools which would have qualified anyway.  Therefore negating the whole reason for the division split in the 1st place. 

If you want to get rid of the split I am OK with that.

You do realize that the large school is in a "no win" situation.  If they win then they just beat up a small school, if they loose then they just lost to a small school.  A large school can gain nothing from it except the possible let down of not winning against the small school.  Then they lose the celebration of winning there division.  If the small school loses then nothing lost because they were not suppose to win.

Rules are rules you can't just change them because you want to.

And just to make things clear I am now associated with a small school. 

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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

I really wish I could understand your thought process on this.  Allowing those teams to compete might take out some of the big schools which would have qualified anyway.  Therefore negating the whole reason for the division split in the 1st place. 

If you want to get rid of the split I am OK with that.

You do realize that the large school is in a "no win" situation.  If they win then they just beat up a small school, if they loose then they just lost to a small school.  A large school can gain nothing from it except the possible let down of not winning against the small school.  Then they lose the celebration of winning there division.  If the small school loses then nothing lost because they were not suppose to win.

Rules are rules you can't just change them because you want to.

And just to make things clear I am now associated with a small school. 

Completely agree with your take on the situation, would much rather get rid of the split to create a more competitive tournament than just letting small schools float from small school to big school on a year to year basis

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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

I really wish I could understand your thought process on this.  Allowing those teams to compete might take out some of the big schools which would have qualified anyway.  Therefore negating the whole reason for the division split in the 1st place. 

If you want to get rid of the split I am OK with that.

You do realize that the large school is in a "no win" situation.  If they win then they just beat up a small school, if they loose then they just lost to a small school.  A large school can gain nothing from it except the possible let down of not winning against the small school.  Then they lose the celebration of winning there division.  If the small school loses then nothing lost because they were not suppose to win.

Rules are rules you can't just change them because you want to.

And just to make things clear I am now associated with a small school. 

My thought process is that Union dominated the small schools last year. They wanted some tough matches to gear up for state and didn't really get it. If Boise State dominates all the teams they play, shouldn't they get a shot at the big schools?

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Union can and does, they can and do schedule tougher school or tourneys throughout the year. 

Union can choose to not attend the state duals if they want.  Same as that they can't move to another region if they were in a weak region. 

Ultimately the state duals tournament is just another tournament, it has no bearing on the actual state title. 

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I know early on when Conner had a good team they choose not to attend the state duals because they did not want to miss another tournament they were in. 

It's the same reason some teams do not attend the region qualifier for state duals. 

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I would be in favor of a kind of compromise.  Allow the small school champion to compete in large school the next year if they want.  I know that would only allow a team like Union to compete in the large school every other year but I would be a fan of that. 

Rules would have to change however, for that to happen. 

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2 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

Union can and does, they can and do schedule tougher school or tourneys throughout the year. 

Union can choose to not attend the state duals if they want.  Same as that they can't move to another region if they were in a weak region. 

Ultimately the state duals tournament is just another tournament, it has no bearing on the actual state title. 

I’ll tell you now others don’t see it that way.... if that’s what determines the state dual champions it’s it. they are the state duals champion.

 

Khsaa would benefit from adding duals but they choose not too. I know I’ve asked on multiple accounts. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, DrBaker said:

Small schools have always wrestled the big schools as far as I know none have backed down from a challenge. This year Union, Tilghman and Walton Verona should compete with the best big schools. 

IMO it wouldn't do Walton any good to wrestle big school this year.  They wouldn't get out of the region.  They don't have enough fire power.

1.  Campbell Co

     Ryle

3.  Simon Kenton, Walton

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3 hours ago, Chris Duke said:

IMO it wouldn't do Walton any good to wrestle big school this year.  They wouldn't get out of the region.  They don't have enough fire power.

1.  Campbell Co

     Ryle

3.  Simon Kenton, Walton

I mean they should (if healthy) be able to  compete with the big schools, not that they should compete in the division. 

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5 hours ago, halfhalfhalf said:

I’ll tell you now others don’t see it that way.... if that’s what determines the state dual champions it’s it. they are the state duals champion.

 

Khsaa would benefit from adding duals but they choose not too. I know I’ve asked on multiple accounts. 
 

 

How would KHSAA benefit?  Unless they have it at the end of the year like they do the individual state (like Ohio) then all that does is take away a weekend or two from all the schools except the 16 who are in the state duals.  Plus I personally think the coaches association does an excellent job hosting the event. 

 

Maybe it is just me, but i find the team championship both at the state duals and the individual tournament to not be a big deal.  I was part of a state team title (ind. and dual) and found it anticlimactic.  I was much more excited about the individuals who placed and won titles more so than the team title.  Maybe its because there was no dual state tourney when I wrestled in the stone age.  It seems to me over the years that I have been in wrestling that the small schools find the state dual title more important than the big schools. 

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I want to make sure my point isn’t being lost GOO. I think what the Ky coaches association does is WONDERFUL. I think my point maybe lost there. It’s what has been done before my time and I have zero problems with it. I’m thankful for it as we have been fortunate enough to qualify for it 4 times and attending 3 (missed once due to snow). 
 

I mean they could benefit from positive pub as they have dropped the ball numerous times in recent memory. Brocks 5 titles, Meyers 4 yr run without a lose in KY and Fahy’s run. But basically be a preview for the state tourney of what could be there. That’s all I’m saying. 

 

I wouldn’t change anything that’s being done now and honestly I hope Lindsey is able to host duals for the long term future. LWC does a wonderful job and the atmosphere is electric and full of drama you would want. It also helps when you have fans lining the mats where it’s standing room only.  The big gym being under the lights is exactly what is needed for this event.

 

its been a great debate with you on this topic for sure.  
 

 

 

 

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It’s just a different point of view. We aren’t that far off. 

Some of us love the team aspect, some don’t. 

Some want the toughest matches right before state, some want to rest. 

In the big scheme of things, it doesn’t matter much. 

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6 hours ago, DrBaker said:

 

Some want the toughest matches right before state, some want to rest. 

 

This must be where we differ.  I believe in resting and getting healthy right before state. :D

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