CradleKY 132 Report post Posted February 13, 2018 A kid who won a region with only 5 wrestlers in the weight class doesn't deserve a top 8 seeding simply bc they're a region champ. has to be full body of work. Use Ranger's rankings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GentleBeard 145 Report post Posted February 13, 2018 If everything is supposed to be in track, I’m not sure why the debate needs to be a big deal. Track has records, head to head, common opponents, margin of victory. I don’t think you need to seed all 32 guys at state, but use regionals as a qualifier and Track as seeding criteria....just like they do for regionals. If national tournaments can figure it out, surely the state of Kentucky can. I’m not going to go through all the crazy draws this year has, but from a fan’s perspective, the semis should be #1-4 (barring any upsets). From a competitor’s perspective, tough draws could lend themselves to potential MOW honors. So, I guess it depends on what the goal is. I think seeding the top 4 could easily be done - even if it meant all 4 wrestlers are from the same region. Just my Canadian $0.02. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrBaker 497 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 The only times that seeding is a problem is when the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ranked guy is beaten by number 1 early. Only the top 4 need seating. Gives a chance for real semis. The top 4 guys(or whoever knocked them off) should meet in the semifinals. Simple. Easy. How it should be done. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 Track does not solve everything. The teams on the boarders that spend most of their time out of state would be at a disadvantage in the seeding. Especially if the kid comes from a school that is not a powerhouse. Those teams don't travel to a lot of tough tournaments and therefore don't have as many significant wins against Ky opponents. Significant wins against out of state opponents would go unnoticed because those kids would not be known throughout Ky. I will con-seed to separating the probable top 4 wrestlers. Figure out who you believe they are and randomly draw them into the 4 seed spots, but only the regional champions. If they are runner up then they will be on the opposite side of the one who beat them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coach Wagers 43 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 20 hours ago, BobcatWrestling said: The way Tennessee does it is that you have to be a returning medalist AND region champ to get seeded. If you were a state champ last year but finish 2nd in your region this year, sorry. Drawn in. Ohio is similar, have to be a returning top 3 placer and district champ. Just merely seeding the Regional champs based on returning placement Criteria and/or win percentage would change the entire landscape. It's not hard to follow that. It wouldn't fix everything, but be a whole lot better than it is now. Tie Breaker Criteria for same placement- 1- Returning to the same weight class; 2- Win Percentage; 3- Previous year placements. Doesn't answer everything, but sure answers a lot. 120 Weight Class- based on Returning placement/win percentage; And Regional Champ (these are not predictions, just carried over the higher ranking athlete) Rank Seed Round 1 Round 2 QTRS Semi's Finals 2 1 Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace 9 Keaton Elliot 20 Sergio Morales Dylan Preston 6 Dylan Preston 7 Zach Cowan Zach Cowen Zach Cowen Indy Ciceron Caileb Hills Isaac Pledger 14 8 Isaac Pledger 11 5 Jacob Grandstaff Jacob Grandstaff Tyler Storck Tyler Storck Garrett Koestel 4 Tyler Storck Tyler Storck Matthew Hendricks 8 Migdoel Ocasio Migdoel Ocasio Migdoel Ocasio 21 Cayden Graham 24 Robert Martin Carson Deckard 13 4 Carson Deckard 1 3 Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Blake Botts Michael Watts Ethan Wells 10 Ethan Wells 5 Brad Miller Brad Miller Brad Miller Harrison Turrey 25 Cordell Vaske Dylan Harkins 17 6 Dylan Harkins 19 7 Jarrett Sanders Jarrett Sander Eli Peyton Preston Mattingly Luke Fullerton 12 Eli Peyton Eli Peyton 15 Marquell McDaniel Isaac French Troy Wooten Preston Mattingly Troy Wooten Carter Mitchell Preston Mattingly 3 2 Preston Mattingly 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters? Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrBaker 497 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Coach Wagers said: Ohio is similar, have to be a returning top 3 placer and district champ. Just merely seeding the Regional champs based on returning placement Criteria and/or win percentage would change the entire landscape. It's not hard to follow that. It wouldn't fix everything, but be a whole lot better than it is now. Tie Breaker Criteria for same placement- 1- Returning to the same weight class; 2- Win Percentage; 3- Previous year placements. Doesn't answer everything, but sure answers a lot. 120 Weight Class- based on Returning placement/win percentage; And Regional Champ (these are not predictions, just carried over the higher ranking athlete) Rank Seed Round 1 Round 2 QTRS Semi's Finals 2 1 Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace 9 Keaton Elliot 20 Sergio Morales Dylan Preston 6 Dylan Preston 7 Zach Cowan Zach Cowen Zach Cowen Indy Ciceron Caileb Hills Isaac Pledger 14 8 Isaac Pledger 11 5 Jacob Grandstaff Jacob Grandstaff Tyler Storck Tyler Storck Garrett Koestel 4 Tyler Storck Tyler Storck Matthew Hendricks 8 Migdoel Ocasio Migdoel Ocasio Migdoel Ocasio 21 Cayden Graham 24 Robert Martin Carson Deckard 13 4 Carson Deckard 1 3 Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Blake Botts Michael Watts Ethan Wells 10 Ethan Wells 5 Brad Miller Brad Miller Brad Miller Harrison Turrey 25 Cordell Vaske Dylan Harkins 17 6 Dylan Harkins 19 7 Jarrett Sanders Jarrett Sander Eli Peyton Preston Mattingly Luke Fullerton 12 Eli Peyton Eli Peyton 15 Marquell McDaniel Isaac French Troy Wooten Preston Mattingly Troy Wooten Carter Mitchell Preston Mattingly 3 2 Preston Mattingly Seems like a great setup to me. Keeps the top 8 separated out a little and not bunched up early. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rtrburn76 13 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 Lets start from a clean slate...no reason to try to fix what is totally broken. You have a 16 man bracket for state.....Which is fed by 4 semi-states which each produce 4 state qualifiers, so you have 16 man brackets. Regionals: Sends top 4 to a Semi-state (2 Regional sites feed each Semi-state) 32 man bracket is a grind, injuries occur, long days and waits between rounds wear on the wrestlers. Friday night is first round. Gives Most Working Parents a Chance to come the first day. Can consolidate to 4 mats, better venue options. Leaves us room to add on with a Sectional and redo regionals for growth. Wrestling starts at 10am and is done by 5 at the latest. Food for thought guys, it is how its done in other states. Don't come back with the "KHSAA won't change"; your only adding to the problem. Either we get united or we continue to let wrestling fail in Ky. Rankings do play apart even to the border teams; because they are wrestling teams with Nationally Ranked Kids, so if they do suffer a loss but a minor decision...It MATTERS! This is reason you don't see the perfect records of wrestlers by the border teams, because they have wrestled the BEST that's why they are so DAMN good. If I had the choice we'd wrestle North of the Ohio River every chance we got. Might get our butts handed to us, but we know where we need to improve. Wrestling is a year round sport and unfortunately you got to travel in the off season. I'm not trying to be harsh, Wrestling is the only sport I care about and I take it extremely personal when I see it or the wrestlers being held back. Lets tell the KHSAA we need to go back to the table and discuss what's best for growth in KY. I say put a panel together and reach out to KSHAA. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rtrburn76 said: Leaves us room to add on with a Sectional and redo regionals for growth. Wrestling starts at 10am and is done by 5 at the latest. Just to play devil's advocate, because I like the idea of District/Region/State or Region/Sectionals/State or whatever. How does adding a Sectional tournament promote growth? Less qualifiers at the state tourney, less teams represented at the state tourney. KHSAA will change, they did when they got rid of the three week post season, and wrestling has grown because of it. I personally like the 3 week post season, but wrestling has grown in the state because more teams are represented at the state tournament. I think we have a better chance to seed the regional champs than changing back to a 3 week post season. I think our numbers would have to grow to where the existing regions are to large and need to be split into two regions or districts. At this point only one or two regions have the number of teams to split and they don't have the participants to split. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rtrburn76 13 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 Sectional will allow when we outgrow adding another stages at the beginning, but only 2 advance at that phase. Its not perfect until numbers are up, we are a ways out from crossing the bridge Its not about the teams at the State tournament, they have their own State Tournament. If we are worried about the amount of teams represented then lets start handing out the participation trophies now. The reason for the post season is for the cream to rise to the top. I have seen 3rd regional finishers come back and win a their Semi-state and go one to place 5th at state. The multiple phases of the State Tournament allows if you have the top 2 guys in weight class and are in the same Sectional, to battle the next 3 weeks. 1 match doesn't defy the rest of tournament, allows chances for redemption. Im all about what we can do to help. I'm not coaching this year do to work, but I'm willing to be on a board/panel/think tank to come up with ideas and sit down with KHSAA and address our concerns and try to find a common ground. We need to find out why South Central area schools are reluctant to start programs. There's enough division in the World today, lets work together and come up with a plan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rtrburn76 13 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, DrBaker said: Seems like a great setup to me. Keeps the top 8 separated out a little and not bunched up early. This exactly what I was referencing. Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 Having only the top 2 to advance does not seem logical to me. I know in region 6 many times all 4 place in the top 6 at state. I have seen region 6 and many other regions have 3 in the semifinals of the state tournament. I know back in the stone age when I wrestled when we had district/region/state our district had 3 in the semi's twice in my wt class from region 6. You would also want to balance the second week. Don't want region 6 and 7 to meet in the second week. Or region 7 and 8. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coach Wagers 43 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said: After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters? Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. Didn't take that much time, merely seeded. So when the regions drop in, it would actually be different. I will compare when regions fall into place if time allows (swamped today at work) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twenhofelcoach 61 Report post Posted February 14, 2018 To be honest, the best way for us is the way it is right now and seed the top 8 regional winners. Not hard to do. Coach Wagers has it shown correctly. Still allows for upsets and tough quarterfinal matches. Takes away most of the second round matches. You still can have those tough second round matches when a Region is overloaded with top end talent. Win your region and get a more favorable draw for your first round. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coach Wagers 43 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 9:52 AM, grappler-of-old said: After looking at this I see that you did not separate the regions into the 4 quarters? Region 6 has 2 in the (4th seed) quarters and none in the (2nd seed) quarters. Gradstaff (Conner) and Ocasio (Simon Kenton) could meet in the quarters. So I split the regions this morning. This bracket would now be the prime example of how Regional depth and seeding will not change any outcome. The bottom half is now stacked with more "ranked" kids than the top. It Eliminates the guantlet for Adams, however creates the Gauntlet for Storck/Mattingly/Ocasio/Preston. The bottom corner the way it falls, and due to depth and people losing, no way to really get out of it. you would have Dylan Preston vs. Tyler Storck first round, winner to possible Ocasio/Mattingly (2nd round match), then to Gabe, to the finals of Wallace/Miller. Like I said original post, seeding the regional champs would help, but it's hard to eliminate the regional depth factor. Rank Seed Round 1 Round 2 QTRS Semi's Finals 2 1 Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Cagen Wallace Carter Mitchell 10 Ethan Wells Ethan Wells Michael Watts Troy Wooten Troy Wooten Isaac Pledger Matthew Hendricks 25 Cordell Vaske Isaac Pledger 14 8 Isaac Pledger 11 5 Jacob Grandstaff Jacob Grandstaff Brad Miller Brad Miller Garrett Koestel 5 Brad Miller Brad Miller 12 Eli Peyton Indy Ciceron Isaac French Carson Deckard Isaac French Blake Botts Carson Deckard 13 4 Carson Deckard 1 3 Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Gabe Adams Caileb Hills 7 Zach Cowan Zach Cowan 21 Cayden Graham 20 Sergio Morales Marquell McDaniel Marquell McDaniel 15 Marquell McDaniel 24 Robert Martin Dylan Harkins 17 6 Dylan Harkins 19 7 Jarrett Sanders Jarrett Sander Tyler Storck Preston Mattingly Luke Fullerton 6 Dylan Preston Tyler Storck 4 Tyler Storck 8 Migdoel Ocasio Migdoel Ocasio Preston Mattingly Harrison Turrey 9 Keaton Elliot Preston Mattingly 3 2 Preston Mattingly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rtrburn76 13 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 Having just 1 round of post season leading to state tournament may be the issue. I attached Indiana's brackets for their state tournament this weekend. State2018.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 If the numbers to the left are the rankings then they don't seem to be much better off than we are. Many of the brackets are unbalanced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eat at Joe's 29 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Rtrburn76 said: Having just 1 round of post season leading to state tournament may be the issue. I attached Indiana's brackets for their state tournament this weekend. State2018.pdf Is this seeded? There are a few #1 and #2 on the same side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rtrburn76 13 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 State is the only one not seed, your 4 semi state champs are the at top and bottom of a bracket, Seeding by rank takes a 2nd to semi-state champs, A lot of semi state's the top 4 ranked face each other. Take a look how they do there whole state series and see if we can adapt to something like this. http://indianamat.com/index.php?/brackets.html/2018/2018-state-series/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 Not much different then what we use to have District/Region/State. Top 4 in each regional would go to sectional. (8 regions to make 4 sectionals). Top 4 in each sectional would go to state. 16 man bracket at state. No different than we use to do up till 2002. The huge majority of coaches/fans wanted to expand the state tourney to 32 man bracket and get rid of second post season week. (I was not one of them). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wcourtney 3 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 May have missed this in another thread but does anyone have a ball park idea for when finals will be? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teammom 2 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 From the KHSAA Website (http://khsaa.org/sports/winter/wrestling/) statemeettimetable.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
119Rider 61 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 I thought the seed was going by Ranger's Rankings. If Adams is number 1 kid in state and has beaten Wallace, then why is he seeded third? LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wcthrowback 5 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, 119Rider said: I thought the seed was going by Ranger's Rankings. If Adams is number 1 kid in state and has beaten Wallace, then why is he seeded third? LOL I think he seeded it based off there placement at last years state tourney. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wcourtney 3 Report post Posted February 15, 2018 1 hour ago, teammom said: From the KHSAA Website (http://khsaa.org/sports/winter/wrestling/) statemeettimetable.pdf Thank you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites