Middle school refs

[tekejew 19]

We have all been in a match where a call doesn’t go our way, but this weekend I (Coach Walls) from Caldwell actually had a ref make a call that I questioned.  The call didn’t get changed and I received my warning for questioning the call. Later in the tournament that same ref came up to me and said “I apologize, earlier you were right” and took away the warning he gave me. I responded with how I appreciated him letting me know that.  I would like to say thanks on here, because I realize it would have been a lot easier to continue the day and say nothing...and the fact that no one else even knew that it took place. Thank you. 

[Ranger123 43]

Good to hear. Overall I thought the officials did a good job this weekend. Were they perfect?  No, but they never will be. And neither will we be as coaches. I'm sure I made my fair share of bonehead coaching decisions. 

I like hearing that 2-way communication and acknowledging mistakes. 

[Braves coach 82]

I experienced a ref. Make a terrible call that cost a young lady a match and an opportunity to place. I already had a warning and was on a short leash. He would not look at video evidence to correct his poor call. I know they are not perfect but they should be open to being challenged on a questionable call.

[ukpridewrestler11 276]

3 minutes ago, Braves coach said:

I experienced a ref. Make a terrible call that cost a young lady a match and an opportunity to place. I already had a warning and was on a short leash. He would not look at video evidence to correct his poor call. I know they are not perfect but they should be open to being challenged on a questionable call.

I have been reffing for 7 years now. We are not allowed to look at any video evidence whatsoever. I am open to being challenged, and most other refs are too. But, if the challenge is questioning the refs decision and no change or overturn is made, it is in the rules to hit the coach with a misconduct penalty. 

[Braves coach 82]

I know. Thats why I walked away. Otherwise the head coach would have been tossed. I slept fine knowing she got cheated out of placement and I am sure the ref did as well. Time to get back to work in the wood shed.

[matreturn 9]

we had a ref who made a questionable, judgment call once and he looked at video after the match. Did it change any outcome, nope but he did acknowledge where he made the wrong call. Refs can’t see everything and call it as they see it. 

[PABacon 45]

I was a ref for 5 years in Pennsylvania and it's not easy to catch every call. Unfortunately there's no instant replay and they can't watch your video and I'm not even sure it should come to that at the high school level. I've been on both sides of the line ref/coach and while I've seen some poor reffing the coaches don't always have the best interpretation of the rules and definitely don't have the best angle of view from the coaches chair either so calm is all we can hope for and hopefully everyone learns from their mistakes. The poor reffing I see the most is generally from being out of position  (missing locked hands and not seeing pins quick enough) and poor use of signals (using signals that don't exist I see a lot!! or not making them clear for the table workers trying to keep score) and not being vocal enough and taking eyes off of the wrestlers and looking at the table while making calls <-gotta trust your signal and trust the table sees it and keep your eyes on the action... all and all I've seen some good reffing here and there but there's a lot of young guys (that's a good thing) and hopefully we're doing some sort of training and meeting to work with them and they stick with it and get better with experience. 

All that being said...I believe I'm going to dive into the pit next season, put the stripes back on and take the heat!! So be ready to yell at me all you want, I feel nothing and tell your kids not to even roll across their backs because I love to slap the mat!!!

[Braves coach 82]

3 hours ago, PABacon said:

I was a ref for 5 years in Pennsylvania and it's not easy to catch every call. Unfortunately there's no instant replay and they can't watch your video and I'm not even sure it should come to that at the high school level. I've been on both sides of the line ref/coach and while I've seen some poor reffing the coaches don't always have the best interpretation of the rules and definitely don't have the best angle of view from the coaches chair either so calm is all we can hope for and hopefully everyone learns from their mistakes. The poor reffing I see the most is generally from being out of position  (missing locked hands and not seeing pins quick enough) and poor use of signals (using signals that don't exist I see a lot!! or not making them clear for the table workers trying to keep score) and not being vocal enough and taking eyes off of the wrestlers and looking at the table while making calls <-gotta trust your signal and trust the table sees it and keep your eyes on the action... all and all I've seen some good reffing here and there but there's a lot of young guys (that's a good thing) and hopefully we're doing some sort of training and meeting to work with them and they stick with it and get better with experience. 

All that being said...I believe I'm going to dive into the pit next season, put the stripes back on and take the heat!! So be ready to yell at me all you want, I feel nothing and tell your kids not to even roll across their backs because I love to slap the mat!!!

Douche. 

[PABacon 45]

Haha...

Thanks for the advice

[FalconWrestling 147]

In regards to refs there have only been a handful of times I have been truly mad at refs this year. I've come to accept that judgement calls will always be judgement calls but in regards to missed calls this generation of refs we have coming up are very open to communication with coaches and I make a point to only discuss judgement calls after a match is over to either gauge their opinion or see if they recognize they missed a call in a constructive manner.

The only things that have made me angry are examples of refs letting things get out of control including one example that I won't really discuss much of since I've already gone through the proper channels about it but the ref blew a call and rather than go through the correct process to rectify the situation tried to shift the gravity of the situation on to the coaches rather than have the guts to make the call themselves. I can understand a ref stonewalling me but a ref turning to me and going "well coach I guess I will let you decide what I do here" (paraphrasing, not the exact quote) is out of line

[grappler-of-old 44]

     Coaches are allowed to ask questions without being penalized.  If there is a call you don't like ask the official what the call was and what he saw.  If he saw something different then you just say OK and there should be no penalty issued.  

     I have always wondered about the questioning the official and getting penalized.  Example.  If an official awards 2 sets of nearfall and you believe that it was the same move.  You call the official to the table and ask if it was 2 separate moves.   If he says No because ............ You are then issued a warning.  C'mon no reason you can't ask a question during a match to clarify a rule.  Next their going to warn you if you question the score, because you missed the official flashing quick points when you didn't see it.  

     Sounds to me the officials may be getting trigger happy like MLB umpired did about 10 years ago. Why try to throw someone out of a tourney for asking a simple question.  If the coach is being a butt then OK, but if it is civilized and quick I believe the official has the right to NOT issue a warning.  

[Eat at Joe's 29]

I tried to find the current rules on this and I couldn't without paying for the rule book. I did find something on it at http://matref0.tripod.com/Articles/CMC_and_USC.pdf

 

Quote

As per rule, (NFHS 7-5-4) a coach is permitted to address the referee at the scorers table when the coach feels that the official has erroneously applied a rule.

When the coach feels an error has been made, he should approach the scorer’s table and the referee can conduct the conference when there is no significant action taking place on the mat. Officials should meet with the coach and listen to the coach’s comment(s). Coaches should conduct their discussion in a sportsmanlike manner and Officials should let the coach speak and allow him to finish. After the coach has finished, one of two things shall occur: 1) the official agrees that some type of error occurred and will take action to correct the error or 2) the official does not agree with the coach or the coach questioned the referee’s judgment and will receive a warning for coach misconduct. Again, the misconduct warning and subsequent penalties are charged to the head coach regardless if an assistant coach initiated the conference. 

 

[Eat at Joe's 29]

I also thought rule 7-5-2 was interesting - https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/wrestling-rules-interpretations-2016-17/

 

Quote

SITUATION 5: The head coach of Team Bulldogs is excited about the move his Wrestler A is applying to Wrestler B. In his excitement, the coach gets out of his chair and moves closer to the action to encourage his wrestler. The referee penalizes the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. RULING: This is a violation of Rule 7-5-2, which states that coaches are restricted to the chairs/bench while the clock is running and during normal out of bounds and resumption of wrestling. The coach may only move toward the mat during a charged time-out or at the end of the match. Rule 7-5-3 requires the coach to be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct for violation of Rule 7-5-2.

 

[grappler-of-old 44]

I thought KY was still using the Joe Carr Sr. rule.  No Joke intended.  Where the coach has an area around his chair which he can stand, use to be a piece of tape to mark it off. At the state tourney looks like they allow them to stand on the red or green carpet in the coaches corner. 

[coachteater 70]

3 minutes ago, grappler-of-old said:

I thought KY was still using the Joe Carr Sr. rule.  No Joke intended.  Where the coach has an area around his chair which he can stand, use to be a piece of tape to mark it off. At the state tourney looks like they allow them to stand on the red or green carpet in the coaches corner. 

I'e been asked to sit down at state tournament by the roaming around powers that be.. lol

Even on the carpet. 

[Eat at Joe's 29]

Oh, I have no idea. I have seen liberal use of the corner by some coaches though. If they weren't in street clothes, you'd think it was a tag team match. 

[bulldog-leader 56]

I have found out that standing behind the chair is the best way to go. But seldom have I found the need to get out of my chair. 

[ukpridewrestler11 276]

Watching last weekends middle school tournament, the Carr's still roam, even walking halfway towards the scorer table and right on the out of bounds line to give instructions to a kid of his (Blue F.) who was caught in a cradle. In the first picture, Jr. is so far out of the coaches section he isn't in the video frame anymore. According to rule 7-5-2 and even if Kentucky follows the so-called Carr rule, Jr. was breaking both of them. This happened during the consi-semis. Video proof on track of this happening, too. 

[Just a Coach 78]

On a related note. Most of the referees we have in middle school are High School refs and they all get certified via KHSSA Training. 

[coachteater 70]

Funny, I just took the NFHS survey sent to coaches. They asked about refs and if they were enforcing certain things. Didnt ask about that, but about if they enforce 2 in a corner.

Side note, judging by survey we may see some changes coming to weight classes 

[Just a Coach 78]

you have a link for that survey?

[Mustang1 20]

http://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource-content/nfhs-sport-questionnaires/

[Alf 43]

They were the same way at youth. At one point Sr was directly over top of the kids screaming his head off. Not sure why they get a pass on this? Certainly distracting for the opposing kid. 

[grappler-of-old 44]

Where is Joe Cattan when you need him. 

[Eat at Joe's 29]

https://samdraut.smugmug.com/Mustang-Classic-Wrestling-2018/i-WfFsVk5/A

 

Great at pic of Cattan

Edited February 8, 2018 by Eat at Joe's