Chris Duke

Middle School and Youth State

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I personally think that if you place at the middle school State Tournament you should not be able to wrestle in the Youth State Tournament! ..

Top 6 Wrestlers at State, Who medal in his or her perspective weight should be ineligible. .

 

But if you DON'T medal. ... I think you should be allowed to participate in Both Youth and Middle School State Tournaments!

 

Curious if there is NO school all week.... Will Middle School Regions offer an additional pound. 

 

If they do give a extra pound due to weather? 

 

Would that extra pound carry over to State? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bond James Bond said:

I personally think that if you place at the middle school State Tournament you should not be able to wrestle in the Youth State Tournament! ..

Top 6 Wrestlers at State, Who medal in his or her perspective weight should be ineligible. .

 

But if you DON'T medal. ... I think you should be allowed to participate in Both Youth and Middle School State Tournaments!

 

Curious if there is NO school all week.... Will Middle School Regions offer an additional pound. 

 

If they do give a extra pound due to weather? 

 

Would that extra pound carry over to State? 

 

 

I think we will see a pound this weekend too many schools off and not able to practice.  They will not give a pound for state because they gave it this weekend.  So if a kid is going to drop because they gave a pound they better make sure they can make weight for state.

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Agreed. Come to the meeting. Cast your vote. Democracy wins. Simple as that. Maybe in the spring, we can revisit these “issues” but until then, it is what it is. Read the bylaws...don’t be that person the clicks “I agree” just to get it over with. Read. The. Literature. Come to the meetings and let your voice be heard. 

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Sounds like we could have a few 12 man brackets at middle school state this year.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  If a wrestler finishes top 4 at the middle school regional tournament and then decides they like their chances in the youth tournament they can do that?  If we fill the bracket with an alternate, they become in ineligible? 

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5 minutes ago, Chris Duke said:

Sounds like we could have a few 12 man brackets at middle school state this year.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  If a wrestler finishes top 4 at the middle school regional tournament and then decides they like their chances in the youth tournament they can do that?  If we fill the bracket with an alternate, they become in ineligible? 

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

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2 hours ago, Coach Livingston said:

Agreed. Come to the meeting. Cast your vote. Democracy wins. Simple as that. Maybe in the spring, we can revisit these “issues” but until then, it is what it is. Read the bylaws...don’t be that person the clicks “I agree” just to get it over with. Read. The. Literature. Come to the meetings and let your voice be heard. 

So it's black and white?  If a wrestler doesn't wrestle in the YOUTH regional tournament he doesn't get to wrestle at state?  Below is from the bylaws.  

Every wrestler is required to have competed in a KFWC sanctioned regional tournament in order to participate in the Youth State Tournament.

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19 minutes ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

That's why I said my kid said he hopes he places 5th! He knows he doesn't stand a chance to place at state but still wants to wrestle hard at regionals for his team. Like I said before a rule that forces an 11 year old kid to think like that is stupid. He should just be able to go out and wrestle hard and let the chips fall where they may and not be penalized for being successful.

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31 minutes ago, Alf said:

That's why I said my kid said he hopes he places 5th! He knows he doesn't stand a chance to place at state but still wants to wrestle hard at regionals for his team. Like I said before a rule that forces an 11 year old kid to think like that is stupid. He should just be able to go out and wrestle hard and let the chips fall where they may and not be penalized for being successful.

 

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This rule defies all logic. Sounds like to me someone"s child got beat by a kid that wrestled in middle school and felt his child was entitled a medal ( that is what wrong with this country its always someone else" fault that you didn"t win don't worry son I'll get rid of those kids for you next year). Sorry words kept spewing off my fingers. Also on another note I remember a kid that qualified for high school state but didn't win youth may not of placed

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On 1/17/2018 at 9:27 PM, gameface said:

So your saying a young 5th or 6th grader from a region with small participation numbers, makes the top 4 in their region and just qualifies, now is disqualified from the youth tournament that he actually is more prepared for. 

OR

A youth that puts in the extra work to become a solid wrestler, now is disqualified from competing at the youth state because the just qualified for a MS State. 

OR

A solid elite wrestler that wants to compete Nationally and wants to wrestle in the Elementary State Tournament BUT because Tulsa Nationals is the same weekend  as the manadatory Regional tournament that he has to weigh in for, but doesn’t even need to compete in to qualify for the State Tourney, cannot compete in his state tournament

All because some coach Dad thinks that by eliminating good kids from the elementary State tournament is a good idea!??

Nike Man, please explain how these scenerios are great for our sport, these kids or making our competition better?

Coach i agree with you and we have spoken about these types of things before. I just wonder why it was changed? It used to be if you placed at MS state you couldn't wrestle youth state, Spencer hasn't wrestled youth since he was like 3rd or 4th grade. Most of us like the old rule, this is another reason we as coaches need to make the meetings. These things come up and if only 10% of our coaches show up then the other 90% lives with the decisions of the other 10%. It is too late to change it foe this season, but we can bring it up at the meeting at state and at the spring meeting. Let's take this for what it is an eye opener. 

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On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

Maybe the fact that this becomes an issue every year is an indicator that something is wrong. Nobody is trying to punish a kid. But we shouldn’t be trying to coddle one either. So maybe we should make elementary, middle school and high school age kids definitive? 

Youth State Tournament eligibility grades K-5

Middle School State eligibility grades 6-8

High School State eligibility grades 9-12

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

That would not be fair to many of the kids. Remember this is about the kids not coaches, we all have above par and below par wrestlers. The old way ensured that some kids who by default got to go to MS State and went 2 and out got a chance to compete with kids more on their level. However this new rule takes that opportunity away. I personally think if a kid goes to MS state as a default and 2 and outs may actually learn from the experience and be a better wrestler. Then at youth state the same kid may meet a wrestler from another region who is at the same level but couldn't qualify for MS State and have a very competitive match. This is just my observations over the last 7 years . 

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20 hours ago, pin2win said:

It's 2018... we can't send out an email and vote online? There are tons of survey software out there we could use. Create the survey/poll and send the link out.

This goes back to them eliminating districts, which is another topic that needs to be discussed... but I hear it now "you should've come to the meetings".

We barely can get all the high school coaches to show up for the HS Coaches Clinic... what makes you think we're going to get all of the youth and ms coaches (who mostly volunteer or are paid very little) to show up to a meeting in the fall and/or spring? 

This is one of our biggest problems and was echoed last night while I spoke to several coaches about this horrible bi law about eliminating the opportunity for kids to compete on 2 different levels. We need to implement in 2018 Spring a new way to communicate and discuss these items and other items that are important to MS and Youth. This forum, for one is a valuable tool for coaches and wrestling fans to voice their opinion and share information. However, when some on the Board choose to stay away from the forum, then this line of communication becomes less effective. I truest believe we have a great group of coaches all working toward the best interest in the wrestler and the sport, but just have different ideas of how to benefit them. The forum ,by far, has provided the best opportunity for ideas to be shared, debated and finding the common ground. 

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15 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

I have asked many about this rule and have been told that it reads participation at Middle School State, not eligibility for middle school state. Hence, if they step on the mat at State they are ineligible for Youth State but allowed to wrestle in Middle School Regions.  I hate this new rule. My son is a 10 year old, 5th grader wrestling 121 and can hold his own against most middle school kids but also gets beat by the better 8th graders, as he should.  It's a transition year for him and kids like that shouldn't be punished for being good at  the Youth level and also trying to  step out to get ready for middle school.

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21 minutes ago, Braves coach said:

I would like to hear from these 10% of (coaches) that voted for this rule change.

Why in the Hell would you vote this rule change in?

Stand up and explain yourselves.

Braves Coach, 

              The 10% i referenced was just a thrown out number based on experience. And I agree why make this type of rule change ? I have to believe it is along the lines of what Heavy stated.

14 hours ago, heavy83 said:

This rule defies all logic. Sounds like to me someone"s child got beat by a kid that wrestled in middle school and felt his child was entitled a medal ( that is what wrong with this country its always someone else" fault that you didn"t win don't worry son I'll get rid of those kids for you next year). Sorry words kept spewing off my fingers. Also on another note I remember a kid that qualified for high school state but didn't win youth may not of placed

 

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Youth state still more than two weeks away why can't thisrule be blown up before then. If there really is that much Outcry from the majority it should be able to be changed if you're just talking about the coaches in our state changing the rules for our tournament I would think it could be made to happen. Why does it have to wait until spring? What is wrong with January 19

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4 hours ago, Braves coach said:

I would like to hear from these 10% of (coaches) that voted for this rule change.

Why in the Hell would you vote this rule change in?

Stand up and explain yourselves.

Probably the same coaches who voted for the 2 pound allowance. 

 

Glad this issue has come up.hopefully more coaches start voting! I agree with ALF! Youth State is still a few weeks away. I think you could have the coaches take a quick vote to change the rules of eligibility for youth state.

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I propose that any coach who votes to eliminate any kid from participating in any tournament that they are eligible for and earned the right to participate in, should immediately lose their voting privileges.  Either these people haven’t thought this through or they have ulterior motives.

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Bylaw 4. Voting process A. All proposals will be approved at the Spring coaches meeting. Proposals that are accepted by more than 50% of teams present will be voted on at the fall coaches meeting. Teams will have the ability to absentee vote or assign a proxy in writing prior to the meeting. All absentee votes and proxy permissions must be turned in 14 days prior to the state-wide meetings (It is the responsibility of coaches wishing to vote this way to make contact with a KFWC officer. All proposals must get more than 50% of the vote to be accepted. KFWC officers will receive 1 additional vote in the event of a tie. KFWC officers will post meeting notes and voting results to the Committee’s website. Member teams are responsible to keep current with information posted on the KFWC website (http://www.kentuckyusawrestling.org/page/show/1031369-middle-school-elementary-). B. Proposals that are voted on in the fall meetings, regardless of yes/no/other vote, shall be on moratorium for 2 years before they can be proposed again, unless urgent need for proposal as decided by KFWC board.

https://cdn2.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0134/9501/Kentucky_Folkstyle_Wrestling_Committee_Action_Items_21May2017.pdf

https://cdn4.sportngin.com/attachments/document/0134/9441/KFWC_Fall_Minutes_2017.pdf

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23 hours ago, twenhofelcoach said:

Did you read the bylaws Chris? The middle school qualifiers (top 4 in each region) are automatically ineligible for youth state. The alternates are still eligible for youth state. So no that isn’t the case. Once qualified, you are ineligible. So if you’re on the fence make sure they finish 5th and they’re eligible for youth. Other then that, we’ll vote on making changes in the spring on our conference call. I’m running for election in 2036. Hence the sarcasm in this please.

I have been told otherwise. I have asked the question if you have a kid that finishes fourth at middle school region but decides to wrestle youth state he/she can opt out of middle school state giving their position to the alternate and wrestle youth state. Response was yes they can.

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Most youth coaches are only around for a short period of time.  Most of these coaches have kids in a program and stay until their kid moves on to middle school.  Hopefully, each  generation of coaches will leave the youth wrestling program better than they found it.  Competition breeds success in most cases.  I imagine if we were talking about soccer, people would have mixed opinions as well.  My son was allowed to wrestle both like many other kids.  He turned out just fine.  All these wrestlers progress at their own pace.  Its ok to take a beating and want to work harder to close the gap.  There is no reason to shelter kids who are the same age and weight. Maybe the parents are more of the issue.  They need little Johnny to get a medal to make up for the hours they sat in a gym.  The problem is little Johnny is now a so called state champ and then he goes to a out of state tournament.  He takes a butt kicking and other states laugh that they beat a state champ from KY.  I think we should spend the time setting up true USA weight classes vs. watering down a so called state tournament.  Leave it up to the tough youth wrestler/parents if they want to compete in the state tournament.  I have seen it go both ways.  Some kids don't waste their time with the youth tournament because of the success they had at the next level.  The choice should be theirs, not a coach that is around for a few years.

You are crippling these kids.  This is no different than making an issue every time a kid takes a loss.  As far a having a meeting, its easy.  Most coaches take a conference call the week of the state tournament for seeding.  That would be a perfect time to take a vote on topics like this one.  I have been to many spring coaches meetings.  Usually about 5-10 coaches show up and a vote taken deciding the fate of the entire state is taken.  Put your heads together and figure out the best time to have the most coaches together at once.  Hell, take a break at the state tournament and let the table workers grab a bite to eat.  Then round up all coaches, go into a room and take a vote.  No need to debate, just vote and go on your way.

Quit making excuses and someone figure out a solution before we don't let kids with winning records wrestle at the youth state tournament.

 

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1 hour ago, Louden Swain said:

I have been told otherwise. I have asked the question if you have a kid that finishes fourth at middle school region but decides to wrestle youth state he/she can opt out of middle school state giving their position to the alternate and wrestle youth state. Response was yes they can.

You are correct.  He was messing with me.  They can wrestle this weekend and they have until the step on the scale at Middle School State to decide what they want to do.  Top 4 this weekend will not lock them into the middle school tournament.

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1 hour ago, Chris Duke said:

You are correct.  He was messing with me.  They can wrestle this weekend and they have until the step on the scale at Middle School State to decide what they want to do.  Top 4 this weekend will not lock them into the middle school tournament.

That’s what friends are for....

How about this, I bet that we will see more alternates wrestling in the State Tournament this year than the last three years combined and youth state numbers will be down 25% due to the fact that they have deemed so many kids ineligible. If that ain’t growth, what is????

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On 1/17/2018 at 11:48 PM, Nike Man said:

If people don’t like grade requirements, maybe we should go to USA age requirements. Wrestle your age division and that’s all. Too many options for parents and coaches. Make age, grade, and weight definitive. No percents on weight. Make a weight class. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Now I thought you could move up in age division in USA?  

I've seen it happen many times. 

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