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1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

Here are some more raw numbers. 

These are the participants in the regions by year.                

               R1           R2          R3         R4           R5           R6           R7          R8         Total

 

 

2013       150         111         136         82           92           149         146         121         987

 

 

2014       128         140         126         115         119         137         119         109         993

 

 

2015       110         113         126         124         105         133         127         118         956

 

 

2016       111         136         102         106         98           140         142         109         944

 

 

2017       98           133         105         89           96           133         148         100         902

 

 

I was debating about going through and recording how many teams are sending teams of five or less but raw region totals serve the same purpose

Here are charts showing changes in numbers for each of the regions plus a total at the end with trendlines included

Region1.png.8507b9a24d8f02400d69b6cfe634

Region2.png.9ec857567b132675efcc1a373bfc

Region3.png.a0e749518fec35f404547bacb839

Region4.png.887208e3c156112859a56755c512

Region5.png.84a8b0b6346f4e49817e0d99d055

Region6.png.e4e38203f3bfb4b2dd421ab38d6b

Region7.png.d2c227493f42ec9631172bda92c8

Region8.png.c901a3aa0765b598c77ac339fe7b

RegionTotal.png.f7346978c9f09c6fd5bc157e

I tried to play with the charts to make the vertical scale equal but excel wasn't playing with me on this matter. So please note that the scales aren't equal among the regions but the trend remains the same outside of some exceptions (Region 7 and Region 2). Like I said I wish I had pre-2013 data and of course it will be interesting to see how the data meets the trend line with the uniform change 

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So random thought. I know it would be hard to prove/track, but I have a theory. I know we have a decline in numbers, but what about other sports? So my guess is that even though it's not tracked other sports are having lower numbers as well. The reason why? One sport athletes.  You may not notice as much in major sports, but I would bet other sports like wrestling are also struggling. I always have encouraged multi sport athletes, and hope others do as well. If not, it could be the downfall of smaller sports. 

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19 minutes ago, coachteater said:

So random thought. I know it would be hard to prove/track, but I have a theory. I know we have a decline in numbers, but what about other sports? So my guess is that even though it's not tracked other sports are having lower numbers as well. The reason why? One sport athletes.  You may not notice as much in major sports, but I would bet other sports like wrestling are also struggling. I always have encouraged multi sport athletes, and hope others do as well. If not, it could be the downfall of smaller sports. 

http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/PDF/2014-15_Participation_Survey_Results.pdf

From the NFHS, total numbers seem to be going up. Their format is terrible in measuring change over time so I'm still working on that especially in regards to break down by sport. The raw data is all at NFHS but it's a nightmare to turn into charts

Also however downvoted my chart dump be my guest but if you don't like bad data then do something about it.

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I found this useful table on a lax site hence their numbers are bolded. Interesting to note that the wrestling population drop is recent and we have made gains since the early 2000's but it's been on a decline since 2012 nationwide. 2016 was the first year Cross Country passed Wrestling in participants. 

 

B O Y S - P A R T I C I P A T I O N
Sport Participants (Thousands) % Change
2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 15sra2.gif
16
01sra2.gif
16
Football (11-player) 1109.3 1108.4 1096.0 1086.6 1093.2 1083.6 1083.3 0.0% 7.0%
Track & Field (outdoor) 572.1 579.3 575.6 574.5 580.3 578.6 591.1 2.2% 20.2%
Basketball 540.2 545.8 535.3 538.7 541.1 541.5 546.4 0.9% 1.2%
Baseball 472.6 471.0 474.2 474.8 482.6 486.6 488.8 0.5% 8.5%
Soccer 391.8 398.4 411.8 411.0 417.4 432.6 440.3 1.8% 32.3%
Wrestling 272.9 273.7 272.1 270.2 269.5 258.2 250.7 -2.9% 2.3%
Cross Country 239.6 246.9 248.5 249.2 252.5 251.0 257.7 2.7% 36.8%
Tennis 162.8 161.4 159.8 157.2 160.5 157.2 157.2 0.0% 9.4%
Golf 157.8 156.9 152.7 152.6 152.6 148.8 146.7 -1.4% -9.3%
Swimming & Diving 131.4 133.9 133.8 138.2 138.4 137.1 133.5 -2.6% 50.3%
Lacrosse 90.7 95.7 100.6 101.7 106.7 108.5 109.5 1.0% 161.9%
Track & Field (indoor) 67.7 70.3 69.4 78.7 73.7 75.2 76.7 2.0% 51.3%
Volleyball 50.5 50.0 49.5 50.4 52.1 54.5 55.4 1.6% 39.4%
Ice Hockey 36.5 36.9 35.7 35.2 35.4 35.9 35.2 -2.0% 6.2%
Bowling 27.7 28.3 27.4 28.4 28.1 29.1 29.6 1.7% 192.5%
Team Tennis 28.9 28.4 36.2 33.0 30.5 25.0 25.5 2.1% 112.8%

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On 9/29/2017 at 9:50 AM, grappler-of-old said:

After 2013 the region brackets are not available. If so I could not access them. 

That is new. I will go look again to see if I can find it. I saw something up to 1999. 

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They list the placers of each region only.   Not the full brackets. So I can't count the number of kids entered in the tourney. 

I probably have most of NKY district and regional tourneys going back through the 90's in my files. But man would that be a project. Not one that I am inclined to pursue. LOL.  

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22 hours ago, grappler-of-old said:

They list the placers of each region only.   Not the full brackets. So I can't count the number of kids entered in the tourney. 

I probably have most of NKY district and regional tourneys going back through the 90's in my files. But man would that be a project. Not one that I am inclined to pursue. LOL.  

lol. I went to look. They pulled it all down. Only thing I was able to find was the state tourney brackets. Oh well. 

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With Mike Clark leaving J-Town to go to Fairdale, it sounds like J-Town may get the ax as well. We have to work together to find coaches and ways to keep programs growing. We add one team but lose two in the process. I'm very concerned about wrestling in Jefferson County. We may lose two programs with rich tradition in J-Town and Eastern. And other high schools such as Ballard and Butler that do not have teams either. I think one issue is also the amount of paperwork required. A brand new head coach can easily want to give up with the paperwork involved and than trying to find time to actually coach.

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Just a thought.  Could this just be growing pains?  With the increase of Ky wrestlers going to college to wrestle that has reduced the number of those who would become officials and coaches.  I'm not sure of the numbers but how many younger coaches are there in Ky?  We may not see an increase for another 5-10 years when those college wrestlers return to coach.  

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On 9/24/2017 at 0:33 AM, grappler-of-old said:

One of the big problems is that sports are not for fun anymore.  

Those kids that are just trying to have fun with any sport are shunned away.  If your not trying to win a state title or national championship then these kids are not given the time of day. I know in my day (you know the stone age) there were many kids on our team that just wanted to have fun.  They were satisfied with winning more than they lost.  They were not going 24/7 365 days a year trying to be the best in the country or the state or even the wrestling room.  However those kids were and are needed in our wrestling rooms. It gives those who just want to have fun something to do instead of running the streets, it also helps those that are trying to be the best in the country/state.  Gives them some different competition in the wrestling room.  

Other sports have an easier time because there kids can have pick up games whenever they feel the urge to.  Basketball, baseball, football, soccer, all have the luxury of being able to wake up one day and say "I want to play a game of soccer" they go to the soccer field or backyard with a a few others and play.  Then the next day or week they don't feel like playing they don't.  During the season we can't have kids not coming to practice every day, but in the off-season we have to allow these kids to come when they get the urge, and not chastise them when they don't come for a couple of weeks in the summer.  If we fill the kids needs, not the coaches/parents needs we can get these kids more interested in the sport.  Then maybe they will show up more often in the off-season and love the sport more.  

I hear so many coaches say "this kid is killing me.  He can be so much better but does not give me 100% in the practice room"  I usually say to them "What does he want from wrestling? does he want to be a state champion, or is he satisfied with his progress?"  We as parents and coaches can't push every kid to be a state champion or national champion.  We have to push them just a little farther than what they expect from themselves.  Then when they reach their own goals most will move there goals to higher expectations and then parent s and coaches can push them a little bit harder.  Some kids will just be satisfied with a 500 record.  If that is what you have then foster that goal, push them to just be over 500 and not scold or scoff them when they don't want to be a state champion or national champion.  

FUN FUN FUN that is the key.  We all know you have more fun when you win, but NOT when someone is always telling you 'You can do better"  

OK I have said enough.  I will end this with my old disclaimer.

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  In the grand scheme of things it means very little and you can take them or leave them.  

GOO OUT> 

Nailed it. I agree. 

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1 hour ago, Nkawtg said:

Why does wrestling start so early in Kentucky compared to other states?

OK you know me I need the data and stats so here they are.  

Of all the surrounding states of KY

State--1st day of Practice----1st event date-----last day----length of season

KY----------------Oct 15------------Nov 20-----------Feb 17---------126

OH---------------Nov 10-----------Dec 1-------------Mar 10---------121

WV--------------Nov 13-----------Nov 29-----------Feb 24----------104

Tenn-----------Oct 30------------Nov 17------------Feb 17---------111

Mizz-----------Oct 30-----------Nov 17-------------Feb 17----------111

Ill--------------Nov 6--------------Nov 20------------Feb 24-----------111

Ind ------------Oct 30--------------Nov 13------------Feb 17--------111

We have a longer season than any of our surrounding states.  The starting date will not change because that is the starting date for all our Winter sports. 

That seems to be the only difference between the rest of the states.  Our 1st event is only earlier than 2 of the 6 states. (OH and WV).  Our ending date has no one earlier than ours.  

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4 hours ago, cmccoy said:

With Mike Clark leaving J-Town to go to Fairdale, it sounds like J-Town may get the ax as well. We have to work together to find coaches and ways to keep programs growing. We add one team but lose two in the process. I'm very concerned about wrestling in Jefferson County. We may lose two programs with rich tradition in J-Town and Eastern. And other high schools such as Ballard and Butler that do not have teams either. I think one issue is also the amount of paperwork required. A brand new head coach can easily want to give up with the paperwork involved and than trying to find time to actually coach.

I can tell you that I tried to start a program at Butler but the athletic department had no interest. Jtown's days had been numbered for awhile, the AD had been anti-wrestling.

But yes on a whole wrestling in Jefferson County is not in a good situation and a lack of viable head coaches is something I consider to be part of the problem

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GOO - not sure I understand the states who have first event only 2-3 weeks after first practice. That doesn't seem very logical. Our "season" being longer with more "preseason" practice time doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. 

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MIssouri's First date to compete is just based on eligible practice days. The true opening date usually is last week of November or first week of December. Missouri also has participation limits on their wrestlers which keep the season shortened into a span of about 6-8 weeks. 15 competitions which only 6 can be tournaments.

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Just throwing it out there, but goo may be right how growth could actually be hurting high school coach numbers and ref numbers, but not just kids are wrestling in college. 

With the expansion of middle school and youth, I think you are also thinning out the coaching pool for high school. There are many middle school and youth coaches who have an opportunity to coach that didn't use to be there. I see coaches who stay in the programs they wrestled for, but as youth and ms coaches now. In the past they would move on to open high school positions or try to start new programs to make themselves a position. 

Hopefully some of these coaches get a couple years in and desire to move up. Start new programs and take over open positions. 

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I think the extra practice is OK.  I do however think that the point system needs to be adjusted.  I talked to an Ohio coach and told him we have 17 events.  He said then a 2 day dual tourney which you could get 10 matches only counts as (1), then that means in theory you could have 170 matches in a season.  We need to look at this. 

While looking at some of the other states I noticed how they monitor the teams/wrestlers.  Many seem to monitor the wrestler and dictate how many matches they are allowed in a year.  Not the team but the individual wrestler.  

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We could put a match cap on individual kids. That could open up opportunities for jv kids to get some varsity action. But it could also increase the number of forfeits we see in dual events as a coach may sit kids out to save matches for bigger events. 

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When I started coaching in Missouri the first thing I noticed was the limitations on competitions. It was just changed recently to allow a wrestler more than 50 matches only if they were receiving forfeits throughout the year. So a wrestler could be 56-0 going into districts but had received 6 forfeits during the year. Teams have began scheduling more dual tournaments or even 16 man pool tourneys. Allowing wrestlers to get the maximum amount of matches each day they wrestle.

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I'm not sure I like the idea of limiting the number of matches per individual. 

We have 11 Saturdays in our season.  If you limited a wrestler to 8 tournaments and 8 Dual/Tri meets a year would be reasonable. I think. In theory you could get 5 matches each tourney (excluding 2 day tourneys) and 2 matches in Dual/Tri meets a year. 

That would total about 56 matches a year.  I would guess that each wrestler would average about 46 actual matches a year using this.  

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The 50 match limit was up until districts. Depending on the weight class usually determined if a wrestler was getting more forfeits. We have 6 tourneys, but no state dual tourney or qualifier. We are allowed to have 9 duals/tris/quads, as long as it doesn't get classified as a tourney. Most schools schedule quads as to up their numbers as best they can. So if I had scheduled 5 quads and 4 tris, this would give my kid 23 matches from duals alone. Then throw in my tourney schedule:

10 team dual tourney (1 day) 5 matches;

2-day tourney 3 possibly 4 matches first day and 4 matches second day. (20 Teams)

Two day invitational 4-5 matches first day, plus 4 matches second day (28 Teams)

One day invitational 5 matches (16 Teams)

Two Day Invitational 3-4 matches first day, 4 matches second day (20 Teams)

One Day 8 Team Dual Tourney 4 matches

 

Taking the most possible matches allowed for each day my kid would have 62 matches before district. So, we had to watch totals and make sure kids were getting accurate numbers and tracking forfeits. Still allows for a lot of wrestling in a short period of time but also can allow a wrestler to get a break if he needs one.

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GOO, what would those limitations you mention (8 tournaments, 8 duals/tris) change for the vast majority of kids?  My guess is a lot of teams are close to that already. 

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