trick_wilk 17 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 13 hours ago, DrBaker said: The forefiets should at least be taken out of their records. Some heavyweights have 1/2 of their wins as forfeits. 5 minutes ago, CradleKY said: If this is all about Reg 5 results there were only THREE competitors at 120!! That is insane. If Yost gets one more win (even a decision) then Woodford wins the tournament. Blame the lack of full rosters not first round byes. There are entire teams who have half of their wins as forfeits. It's not fair when seeding to teams who have not accumulated forfeits. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gentleben1590 8 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Mathematically, sure, give them points for byes and forfeits at tournaments and duals. But, I've never been a fan of using forfeits and byes as part of the actual record. Records should reflect actual matches wrestled, imo. Otherwise, you'll have major discrepancies when seeding a tournament that goes by record. We've experienced that a lot this year and brackets get "busted" quickly. Just my Canadian $0.02. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CBender 17 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 If all events drew byes into a tournament first and randomly as a matter of statewide policy, I believe you would certainly take a significant step to help to minimize the impact of both situations, maybe as well as could be expected within the context of the current NFHS rules. When byes are not random and esp. when they are assigned to seeded wrestlers first, then I have difficulty understanding any "tourney byes don't score max points" argument, or any "forfeits count on your record but byes don't" policy. There is little logical argument to include a non-injury dual forfeit as an achievement of highest merit (a worthy-of-the-record books win by fall), but not treat an assigned tournament bye that results from high seeding similarly, when scoring or when comparing two overall records for seeding purposes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ukpridewrestler11 276 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 Could that have been the reasoning behind Woodford coming in second to Oldham? I am with you CBender. Union had 7 guys with byes their first round, it would clearly have put them over the 300pt mark (297.5). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eat at Joe's 29 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, ukpridewrestler11 said: Could that have been the reasoning behind Woodford coming in second to Oldham? I am with you CBender. Union had 7 guys with byes their first round, it would clearly have put them over the 300pt mark (297.5). So, I went to Track and counted the numbers of byes on each team. Both had 6. Oldham - 4 byes in champ side, 2 in consoles. Woodford - 6 byes in champ side. OC won by two points - if all byes received bonus, then no - but if only champs, then yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 BC; If you draw the byes first then coaches will try to disrupt the seed process so they don't get the seed that has the bye Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 13, 2017 It seems to me that the only real time this comes into play is at the regional tournament. With the use of Track Wrestling seeding could be done by a 3rd party in most cases. Looking at Head to head and common opponent will almost always sort the top 6 kids out from each other. For that matter it would probably sort out all the seeds all the way down to 16. What many don't see is that getting in for that 5th or 6th place is extremely important to many wrestlers/teams. It's not just about the top two or top 4. If you are one that might be 6th best but get randomly drawn to where you never meet the 6th or 5th seed you never get to prove it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeus 117 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 The inconsistency between the two formats regarding byes and forfeits has bothered me for a long time. With duals I think a team that has an empty weight class should be penalized (or the full team should be rewarded, to use positive language), because it's collectively a team competition. Tournaments are obviously individual, but they keep a team score, meaning teams that have full rosters should be rewarded in this situation as well, in my opinion. One could argue that the teams are already rewarded by having a wrestler that has the opportunity to score points, which is true. One could also say that team scores at tournaments should be done away with, which I'm not advocating, but the discrepancy between the systems does exist and should be addressed. Perhaps a compromise is to allow byes to count as a win (could be a regular decision or a pin in terms of points, either would be fine with me) to reward the teams with full rosters in tournaments. This means however that records would be further inflated by matches that didn't really occur. To counter this in seeding meetings, regions could modify their win percentage criteria to only include wins where two wrestlers actually competed against each other. This gives consistency for dual and tournament scoring, rewards teams with full rosters at tournaments, and doesn't negatively affect wrestlers with less "opportunities" for wins where no match actually occurred. Maybe the KHSAA could mandate this for next year, although we all know how much they listen to us coaches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heavy83 15 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 Just do placing points 10 for 1st 8 for2nd 6 for 3rd 4 for 4th 2for 5th 1 for 6th Then its just win baby Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 Zeus; At many duals a great wrestler will receive a forfeit because the opposing team may bump up their wrestler for a better chance of a win. This great wrestler then receives fewer wins which will hurt his record. To me this is worse than an inflated record. As I said it really does not matter during the season, seeding in not important during regular season tournaments. This only effects the regional tourney and at that point your wins are recorded by who you wrestle. "Head to Head and common opponent" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeus 117 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 Very true GOO, I guess I think only wins actually wrestled should be counted in seeding now matter what. The overall record can be as whatever, but we all know a forfeit/bye is not the same as an earned win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grappler-of-old 44 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 7 minutes ago, Zeus said: I guess I think only wins actually wrestled should be counted in seeding now matter what. I think this is already being done for the most part. I don't believe many kids have received a higher seed because of forfeits. It is usually because of their quality of work during the season. Coaches are not dumb when it comes to seed meetings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eminent 8 Report post Posted February 14, 2017 Not true, I know our seed meeting body of work is not a factor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
