Youth and MS uniforms

[gameface 253]

I'd like to get some feedback on where everyone stands on uniforms. I'd have to admit, I had no stance either way but after  I  received some great feedback from larger MS boys, my opinion has changed.  Most of them said they'd be interested in wrestling but they chose not to wrestle due to singlets. And before you get fired up because we all wore singlets back in the day, remember this is the world they are living in. Now these are kids that have never wrestled, but with the new sublimated gear that is out there to go along with the traditional singlet, this minimum change to allow them to wear either a singlet or the type of gear they wore during FLO's P4P tournament, might be a great tool to reach more wrestlers. I know that this is up for vote at our next meeting this month, consider the pro's and con's. I know all of us would love to increase our numbers BUT, the most important thing is to provide a sport where kids of all sizes feel they have a sport they can be their best in. Wrestling has been and always will be a sport that does not discriminate. 

[WrestlerDad 4]

I know it may be hard for some Veterans of the sport to accept but feel this would be nothing but positive in reaching more young people here in the state of Kentucky.  Our objective here is to provide an opportunity for any child no matter what their size and build,  this change would allow a choice of either the singlet or short/shirt combo. Really think this is a great idea and a step in pushing Kentucky wrestling to more youth.

[rjs4470 103]

While I don't think singlets are the main reason kids don't choose to wrestle, you hear it said enough, that an alternate uniform is worth considering, and I think we'd be doing the sport a disservice if we don't at least explore the option.  Even a couple extra kids would mean a lot to most teams, especially at the higher weights, where many teams seem to struggle to fill spots.  Uniforms  have evolved and changed in every other sport...maybe it is time for wrestling to evolve as well.

[Nike Man 292]

I am one of those old guys who doesn't really like the new style. For me it just doesn't follow tradition. That being said, I think that if we as whole truly believe that this will break down some sort of barrier and get more participation, then it's worth a shot. I would never stand in the way of the growth of the sport I love. 

[Hammerhead213 5]

As a parent of a bigger wrestler I can see where some insecurities come from the kids in the upper weight classes come when the subject of singlets comes in. My son loves his singlet collection, but many of his friends think that they are too form fitting. With all the compression/dry fit gear out there these days, maybe it would be worth trying out another option. I know all coaches would agree that trying to fill in the upper weight classes are difficult at best. Anything that would advance the sport is always worth looking into. I know wrestling is a tough sport, and not cut out for everyone, but shouldn't we try to get as many kids out on the mat as possible. 

[plantmanky1 58]

After speaking with about 30 trainers and half a dozen medical professionals about potential injury risk and their thoughts, I will be voting singlets only at both levels. 

[MLee 68]

1 hour ago, plantmanky1 said:

After speaking with about 30 trainers and half a dozen medical professionals about potential injury risk and their thoughts, I will be voting singlets only at both levels. 

I've seen a finger get dislocated after getting caught in a shirt (once), but no other injuries due to clothing in over 30 years of being on the mats.  If it's unsafe to wear fighter shorts and compression shirts at tournaments, then why in the heck do we allow kids to wear whatever in the practice room (hoodies, sweats, etc.) where most of the wrestling occurs?  

I believe this is a no-brainer.  Kids should have the option to wear either.  I've had dozens of youth kids choose not to wrestle in tournaments or quit because of singlets.  It is clearly impacting participation.  I haven't heard of a good argument against it.

 

[gameface 253]

Can you share the risks of compression shirts and shorts by over 30 medical professionals with us Adam?  No one is proposing the loose fight shorts or loose shirts. Exact material singlets are made from fitting the same way. Just doesn't have the open sides. Even the length of shorts are the same length and tightness of singlets!!

[dutch 178]

I think we should give them the choice.  I love hearing about anything that would get more kids involved.  It is funny hearing Adam talk about the 972 trainers opinions that they might get hurt wearing a shirt and shorts.  Considering they practice 5 days a week in shorts and a tee shirt.  Then they wrestle 2-5 matches that are a minute and a half long on any given weekend.  I would say they would be OK.  Lets look for positive solutions vs. negative feedback.

Not to mention if i decided to wrestle in the bluegrass games i would prefer a shirt and shorts over a singlet.  Which would you wear Adam?

 

[plantmanky1 58]

 

1 hour ago, MLee said:

I've seen a finger get dislocated after getting caught in a shirt (once), but no other injuries due to clothing in over 30 years of being on the mats.  If it's unsafe to wear fighter shorts and compression shirts at tournaments, then why in the heck do we allow kids to wear whatever in the practice room (hoodies, sweats, etc.) where most of the wrestling occurs?  

I believe this is a no-brainer.  Kids should have the option to wear either.  I've had dozens of youth kids choose not to wrestle in tournaments or quit because of singlets.  It is clearly impacting participation.  I haven't heard of a good argument against it.

 

 

1 hour ago, gameface said:

Can you share the risks of compression shirts and shorts by over 30 medical professionals with us Adam?  No one is proposing the loose fight shorts or loose shirts. Exact material singlets are made from fitting the same way. Just doesn't have the open sides. Even the length of shorts are the same length and tightness of singlets!!

Mlee, three or four years ago we had a kid dislocate his elbow (required surgery) after he got it caught up in another kids shorts in practice and the kid rolled to get out of the way with his arm still in there.  Freak thing yes, but we had to change our practice attire after that. The proposal in the spring was that teams would have the option to have "Team matching shorts and shirts combo or singlet, but the team had to be uniform"  In other words teams could not have half and half, if that makes sense.   I agree with rjs4470 that I dont think the singlets have as big of an impact on participations numbers as some suggest, but maybe its different in other areas of the state and other teams. 

 

Gameface, the sports health and safety taskforce that I am on that meets every two months had a uniforms discussion back in June.  While this covers all sports, not just wrestling, there was significant discussion on the "Cage Fighter" type shorts and the "potential" for injury due to how they conform to the body.  Your basic injuries to extremities that could get caught in the shorts during a match, specifically more at risk with the younger ages just learning how to wrestle. I also remember a team doctor from Purdue stating something about the material of the cage fighter shorts material being more susceptible to possibly carrying a bacteria on them if not washed properly, it had to do with the material of the shorts and it being introduced to that bacteria.   The general consensus was singlets were safer than the shorts for risk of potential injury.  Now you brought up the compression style outer shorts, instead of the cage fighter shorts, that IMO does decrease the risk of potential injury due to their conformity to the body as long as there is not a significant difference in the material to a singlet.  

 

This leads me to a question, is the issue with singlets the tightness and conformity, or overall appearance?  

 

 

 

[plantmanky1 58]

11 minutes ago, dutch said:

I think we should give them the choice.  I love hearing about anything that would get more kids involved.  It is funny hearing Adam talk about the 972 trainers opinions that they might get hurt wearing a shirt and shorts.  Considering they practice 5 days a week in shorts and a tee shirt.  Then they wrestle 2-5 matches that are a minute and a half long on any given weekend.  I would say they would be OK.  Lets look for positive solutions vs. negative feedback.

Not to mention if i decided to wrestle in the bluegrass games i would prefer a shirt and shorts over a singlet.  Which would you wear Adam?

 

Understand your points, but you also have to look at the audience of the room as well.  In these taskforce meetings, the audience is not so concerned with how the players look but more with the overall safety and wellbeing of each particular focus point.  I will say there is a small difference in the practice room (when you are controlled drilling) vs live matches.  (Now that doesn't account for the times in the practice room you are full situation and live wrestling, I get that.)  

 

[gameface 253]

Adam, the only thing that we are trying to accomplish here is to allow kids that have self image issues not hold them back from trying wrestling. It's a great sport that is losing interest to kids that now are joining Archery along with Basketball and everything else. Let's be a little more open minded about this topic. The material is the exact same thing as singlets.  And do you think because the wording is a little off during a proposal that we can't find a way to do what is right for our sport. We were making decisions from the hip at state that overall benefitted the sport of wrestling in Kentucky youth and MS. Just like we've done for team scoring, brackets , and every other change, it's been in the best interest of the kid and the sport.  BTW Dutch want to know if you'll be wrestling in a singlet at the Bluegrass games or a shirt and shorts?

[MLee 68]

14 minutes ago, plantmanky1 said:

 

 

Mlee, three or four years ago we had a kid dislocate his elbow (required surgery) after he got it caught up in another kids shorts in practice and the kid rolled to get out of the way with his arm still in there.  Freak thing yes, but we had to change our practice attire after that. The proposal in the spring was that teams would have the option to have "Team matching shorts and shirts combo or singlet, but the team had to be uniform"  In other words teams could not have half and half, if that makes sense.   I agree with rjs4470 that I dont think the singlets have as big of an impact on participations numbers as some suggest, but maybe its different in other areas of the state and other teams. 

 

Gameface, the sports health and safety taskforce that I am on that meets every two months had a uniforms discussion back in June.  While this covers all sports, not just wrestling, there was significant discussion on the "Cage Fighter" type shorts and the "potential" for injury due to how they conform to the body.  Your basic injuries to extremities that could get caught in the shorts during a match, specifically more at risk with the younger ages just learning how to wrestle. I also remember a team doctor from Purdue stating something about the material of the cage fighter shorts material being more susceptible to possibly carrying a bacteria on them if not washed properly, it had to do with the material of the shorts and it being introduced to that bacteria.   The general consensus was singlets were safer than the shorts for risk of potential injury.  Now you brought up the compression style outer shorts, instead of the cage fighter shorts, that IMO does decrease the risk of potential injury due to their conformity to the body as long as there is not a significant difference in the material to a singlet.  

 

This leads me to a question, is the issue with singlets the tightness and conformity, or overall appearance?  

 

 

 

I just cant buy safety as a primary reason why people are against it.  I'm all for keep the kids safe, but this seems silly.  Are these same people opposed to lightweight mats vs the resilite mats?  I'm sure those same "professionals" would agree the old style mats are safer.  Was that decision put to a vote?  

Also, you mentioned there is a small difference between practice and live tournaments...I'd argue the difference is huge.  In live tournaments, you have a referee watching the matches.  If and when a kid gets tangled up in a bad position (happens all the time now in singlets), the ref's job is to stop the match.  Most live go's in a practice room are like the Wild Wild West!  There is very little supervision with kids wrestling wearing whatever they want.  Are we going to vote on practice attire too? 

If a team thinks it could help improve their #'s, then they should be permitted to do so.  I don't see why it should even come to a vote.  

 

 

[dutch 178]

2 minutes ago, MLee said:

I just cant buy safety as a primary reason why people are against it.  I'm all for keep the kids safe, but this seems silly.  Are these same people opposed to lightweight mats vs the resilite mats?  I'm sure those same "professionals" would agree the old style mats are safer.  Was that decision put to a vote?  

Also, you mentioned there is a small difference between practice and live tournaments...I'd argue the difference is huge.  In live tournaments, you have a referee watching the matches.  If and when a kid gets tangled up in a bad position (happens all the time now in singlets), the ref's job is to stop the match.  Most live go's in a practice room are like the Wild Wild West!  There is very little supervision with kids wrestling wearing whatever they want.  Are we going to vote on practice attire too? 

If a team thinks it could help improve their #'s, then they should be permitted to do so.  I don't see why it should even come to a vote.  

 

 

Great point.  I know when Mason was in middle school he was going live a lot longer during the week of practice than he did on Saturdays.  Stop the madness.

Hell we should make all the kids practice in a singlet if that was is the case.  I have been endangering my kid for years.  Bad parent.

[Coach Wagers 43]

I prefer singlets, and I agree with RS above about that not being the main issue.  However, I have seen numbers drop severely over the last few years coaching not just in KY but in Ohio as well.  If shorts/shirts would bring out a handful of kids, why not do it?  Now my preference of singlet is just that, my preference.  I'm 100% behind allowing the teams/kids to choose the attire.  They should have every right to choose, and a lot of tournaments (especially youth/MS) will allow the shorts/shirts combo now (In Ohio at least). 

I have to agree with Brandon/Matt/Darren- and as much as I hate to say it because this never happens (hasn't since we met 20 years ago) I agree with Matt again, it shouldn't even be a vote.  Approve a style to wear, and then give the wrestlers the option.

[MLee 68]

I got an idea...let's have a conference call about the meeting in the Fall regarding the topics in the Spring Meeting that's in reference to the vote about which medal we're going to use for the Youth State Tournament in 2022.  

 

[Ranger123 43]

I'm in the same boat as wagers. I prefer the singlet, but do believe we should consider the options if it will possibly help participation. But I do believe that the topic should be discussed and voted on to be sure we are making an informed and safe choice for all the kids involved. The option that gameface proposed is a no brainer; should definitely be an option for the kids. I would be much less supportive of loose fitting shorts and tshirts.  Although that is a good point that we do it every single day in the practice room, and sometimes worse with hoodies. 

[plantmanky1 58]

2 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

I'm in the same boat as wagers. I prefer the singlet, but do believe we should consider the options if it will possibly help participation. But I do believe that the topic should be discussed and voted on to be sure we are making an informed and safe choice for all the kids involved. The option that gameface proposed is a no brainer; should definitely be an option for the kids. I would be much less supportive of loose fitting shorts and tshirts.  Although that is a good point that we do it every single day in the practice room, and sometimes worse with hoodies. 

Agree 100% with this, we had about a 15-20 minute discussion on this at the spring meeting, down to making sure it wasnt just regular shorts and t shirts that would be allowed but a more defined team matching uniform.  

Getting some going post in this thread on the issue, its a shame those were not brought up during the spring meeting when the discussion took place. 

[MLee 68]

2 hours ago, Ranger123 said:

I'm in the same boat as wagers. I prefer the singlet, but do believe we should consider the options if it will possibly help participation. But I do believe that the topic should be discussed and voted on to be sure we are making an informed and safe choice for all the kids involved. The option that gameface proposed is a no brainer; should definitely be an option for the kids. I would be much less supportive of loose fitting shorts and tshirts.  Although that is a good point that we do it every single day in the practice room, and sometimes worse with hoodies. 

Voting isn't always the answer, you know this. I've seen some of the same people on here debating against compression shorts and shirts make arguments against because of cost.  Now it's a safety issue.  

We all know it's not about safety. It's a spin job. I broke my leg, collarbone, ankle, tore my knee, countless stitches and dislocated fingers all while wearing a singlet. And the ringworm debate is hilarious. Are we to believe shorts might increase the likelihood of spreading diseases? Too funny.

The wrestling singlet is arguably the worst uniform of all sports. We're just accustomed to it. Kids play football for the helmets and shoulder pads. Basketball for the shoes. If we can introduce an element of coolness to an archaic sport w/out disrupting its integrity, I say go for it. I doubt it will help tremendously with #'s, but at least we won't see HWT's man boobs pop out all over the place. 

[plantmanky1 58]

4 hours ago, gameface said:

Adam, the only thing that we are trying to accomplish here is to allow kids that have self image issues not hold them back from trying wrestling. It's a great sport that is losing interest to kids that now are joining Archery along with Basketball and everything else. Let's be a little more open minded about this topic. The material is the exact same thing as singlets.  And do you think because the wording is a little off during a proposal that we can't find a way to do what is right for our sport. We were making decisions from the hip at state that overall benefitted the sport of wrestling in Kentucky youth and MS. Just like we've done for team scoring, brackets , and every other change, it's been in the best interest of the kid and the sport.  BTW Dutch want to know if you'll be wrestling in a singlet at the Bluegrass games or a shirt and shorts?

I am not sure I follow you on the self image issue.  Whether a tight singlet, or tight compression shorts and Tshirts wouldn't the image be the same? it's still tight fitting and conforming to the body is it not?

 

I wish you could have been at the spring meeting as involved as you are, because as a whole I agree that many of the off the hip decisions that had been/were made did a great benefit.  However not everyone agreed with that and why there are so many proposals for this fall's vote.  There are many members in the association (teams/coaches) that want that to stop, and that things be guidelined, and hashed out on paper, via vote, so that the standard is set so to speak to minimized things being done off the cuff.  I get that, I understand that.  

[plantmanky1 58]

4 hours ago, gameface said:

Adam, the only thing that we are trying to accomplish here is to allow kids that have self image issues not hold them back from trying wrestling. It's a great sport that is losing interest to kids that now are joining Archery along with Basketball and everything else. Let's be a little more open minded about this topic. The material is the exact same thing as singlets.  And do you think because the wording is a little off during a proposal that we can't find a way to do what is right for our sport. We were making decisions from the hip at state that overall benefitted the sport of wrestling in Kentucky youth and MS. Just like we've done for team scoring, brackets , and every other change, it's been in the best interest of the kid and the sport.  BTW Dutch want to know if you'll be wrestling in a singlet at the Bluegrass games or a shirt and shorts?

Neither, I think I would prefer to wear the bear suit, lol. 

[plantmanky1 58]

4 hours ago, MLee said:

I got an idea...let's have a conference call about the meeting in the Fall regarding the topics in the Spring Meeting that's in reference to the vote about which medal we're going to use for the Youth State Tournament in 2022.  

 

Have at it, just make sure the ribbons on the medals are different colors for each place and not all the same.  That was a complaint by multiple coaches last year. 

[plantmanky1 58]

7 minutes ago, MLee said:

Voting isn't always the answer, you know this. I've seen some of the same people on here debating against compression shorts and shirts make arguments against because of cost.  Now it's a safety issue.  

We all know it's not about safety. It's a spin job. I broke my leg, collarbone, ankle, tore my knee, countless stitches and dislocated fingers all while wearing a singlet. And the ringworm debate is hilarious. Are we to believe shorts might increase the likelihood of spreading diseases? Too funny.

The wrestling singlet is arguably the worst uniform of all sports. We're just accustomed to it. Kids play football for the helmets and shoulder pads. Basketball for the shoes. If we can introduce an element of coolness to an archaic sport w/out disrupting its integrity, I say go for it. I doubt it will help tremendously with #'s, but at least we won't see HWT's man boobs pop out all over the place. 

I will agree with you the cost angle is almost gone, as prices are very similar today.  

[gameface 253]

What's a shame is that not everyone is able to make it to the meeting based on their jobs and lives.  We all do our best Plantman! Some people commenting are probley parents, High School Coaches that aren't apart of that meeting. As you recall last year Matt and I talked about putting these issues from the Spring meeting out on either this forum or a list of emails that we all could weigh in on.  We  consider these people to be invested in the youth and MS. Some have great ideas.  I consider myself invested and like you spend countless hours on State tourneys set up, take down, run tourney and MC. Move mats and much more when asked. Not everyone can make the meetings but we all have the Internet and email. I'm sure in our little piece of wrestling heaven here in Kentucky, we adults, can make the best decision for our programs and the state of kentucky wrestling without turning it into the joke of politics and splitting hairs over wording. . If it's matching compression shorts and shirts that look exactly like our singlets which will define us as being "uniformed" then there is no issue with disease carrying fabrics or arms/ fingers getting ripped off during their 4 1/2 minutes of wrestling.  And if Ranger weighed in favor of this then you have to change your position and vote or BE VOTED OFF THE ISLAND BY THE GRAND MASTER!!  Adam, all joking set aside, this is trying to build numbers and bring more kids into a sport that they might find their value in. Isn't that worth trying something different if we could influence kids to be involved? 

[plantmanky1 58]

One of the discussion points on this issue in the spring was "where is the high school going with this".  I believe two states currently allow for shorts and t shirts.  (California and Arizona, maybe, somebody correct me on that please)  I knows as far as the KHSAA Wrestling Advisory Committee it wasn't a topic for discussion.  

 

That specifically is why there are two votes on the matter.  One for youth and one for Middle School.  I know the general thought at the spring meeting was youth would be acceptable, but middle school needed to be singlets only.