Help Me Fix The State Finals

[tccx-14 16]

40 minutes ago, Coach Wagers said:

I hope this was sarcasm.....  Myself and probably the 30+ other coaches I talked too complained that they were NOT running the QTRS on Friday night.  So I would be curious about coaches that truly wanted out of there early on Friday rather than run that round.  There were also many many complaints prior to the tournament even starting; letting KHSAA know the finals in this format would last 4+ hours.  I don't know any coach and/or wrestler that would want to arrive at 5:30 and then not wrestle until 10:40 for your finals match. 

There are loads of coaches with ideas, on and off the coaches board, that can make this tournament spectacular.  I have only coached high school in KY for a few years now, and the feeling I get is that KHSAA does what they feel is best and nothing else matters.  Which to me, IMO, is causing a spiraling downward effect rather than helping make it better.  

I wish it was sarcasm. 

[Zeus 117]

I say use the media.  A suggestion I made before is to boycott the state tournament.  You might have to hit the KHSAA where it hurts for them to listen to us.

[coachteater 70]

Although the format was horrible, I think we as fans need to make sure the kids know how much we truly appreciate them. That was my 20 yr and it seems as every year the kids are more impressive.  Yes the format was hard to watch, but let's move forward and try to change it, but not make it the top memory we have. Remember that duck under, the overtime win for binder, young finishing a great career, and an 8th grader starting his off right. Those kids deserve deserve to be in our memories. Thanks to all the kids for all the work they put in to put on an impressive tournament.  

[rjs4470 103]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

I say use the media.  A suggestion I made before is to boycott the state tournament.  You might have to hit the KHSAA where it hurts for them to listen to us.

So we complain that the kids aren't being honored or shown the respect they deserve.  So to fix that, we tell everyone not to show up, so the kids we want to honor get to wrestle in an empty arena.  That would be cutting our nose off to spite our face.  

The format was bad.  No doubt.  But despite the problems, it was still a great, eventful, tournament with many great matches and champions to remember.  Imagine if everyone would have boycotted?  Who would have been the real losers.....the KHSAA, or the wrestling community??

The sport is growing, and it will certainly require some changes in the State tournament format.  But we as a wrestling community also have to lose the "everyone is trying to kill wrestling", "the world doesn't understand the sport",  "we are treated like second class citizens" attitude.  From a guy who is not from KY and comes from a big wrestling area, the progress that's been made in the 5 years I've been involved in the sport has been very good.  It's not where it needs to be, but still much better than it was.

 

[Caleb.Canter22 13]

rjs4470, I agree. What Zeus is suggesting is not at all the approach that I have been suggesting. I am not suggesting that KHSAA is taking advantage of the wrestling state tournament or doing wrong intentionally, I honestly believe that they just have a misconception about how we as a community see the state tournament. Then they have acted on this misconception making changes to the format and traditions that will not benefit the sport whatsoever.

I really did not want this to become an open discussion where everyone bashes the KHSAA, and talks about how awful everything was. The only reason I started this thread was to try to collect the opinions of those that do genuinely care about the sport of wrestling. Posting a response to this thread will do absolutely nothing for our cause, Instead take that time to email me a letter describing your opinions. Then once you have done that invite 3-4 others to do the same. 

 

[Zeus 117]

I was just suggesting ways to get the KHSAA's attention, which that would certainly do as Coach Bankemper said out of 22 or something sports that the wrestling state tournament is their 4th biggest money-maker.  In no way to I WANT to boycott the state tournament, just to get the KHSAA's attention.  In what other ways could we do this then?

[Josh_Claywell 52]

3 hours ago, Zeus said:

I say use the media.  A suggestion I made before is to boycott the state tournament.  You might have to hit the KHSAA where it hurts for them to listen to us.

I hate to say it, but the majority of media won't care. Good luck getting the CJ or the Herald Leader behind this.

The smaller outlets, like mine, would be more apt to support the movement.

[rjs4470 103]

7 hours ago, Zeus said:

I was just suggesting ways to get the KHSAA's attention, which that would certainly do as Coach Bankemper said out of 22 or something sports that the wrestling state tournament is their 4th biggest money-maker.  In no way to I WANT to boycott the state tournament, just to get the KHSAA's attention.  In what other ways could we do this then?

First, we (and I mean the wrestling community as a whole, not you specifically) have to get past the belief that wrestling is the "stepchild" sport and not cared about.  The chip on our shoulder and complaining that wrestling is treated as a second class sport, just makes the community look like a bunch of whiners.  When you present ideas with that backdrop, it's not going to be easy to get anyone to listen, let alone the KHSAA.

Second, don't for a minute think that wrestling is the only sport where people have issues with prices, venue, location, schedule etc.  Go over to the other big KY high school sports site and check out the sports threads around state tournament time.  A change was made to basketball a couple years ago changing the final to Sunday, and people lost their minds.  And if you think wrestling has it bad, do some research and see how people feel about the girls softball state tourney.  Again, I mentioned once before that I spent well over $100 for my wife and I to attend just 3 of the 4 state tourney baseball games last year.  The costs of concessions, tickets, parking etc are pretty similar for almost every sport's state championship.  

As a community, we have to keep growing the sport, especially in the areas where there isn't wrestling.  More athletes, more voices which will force the powers that be to listen more (as long as those ideas are presented in a reasonable manner).  I can almost guarantee that there will be changes next year.  The folks in the KHSAA aren't stupid.  I give them credit for trying something new, and hopefully can give them credit next year if they learn something and do just a little better next year.  

Finally, we should still be talking more about the tournament itself....the great performances, the upsets, the surprises etc.  Strip all the complaints about the venue, prices, schedule etc, and really, this was one of the better tournaments in recent memory.  THAT is what's important.

[Zeus 117]

You make some good points, especially comparing wrestling to other sports that are struggling.  However without discussing the issues we have how are we to go about trying to fix them?  One of the region presidents told me a couple of years ago that at the beginning of the annual coaches/KHSAA meeting before the state tournament, the first thing Mike Barren or Julian Tackett said was that nothing is going to change, basically ignoring everything the coaches were going to say, before they said it!

Saying that wrestling isn't the only sport with problems is a valid point, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix those issues, especially when it was perfectly fine a couple of years ago (specifically regarding the finals format).  I'm glad to see them using eight mats this year and I hope they'll use the extra time on Friday afternoon to wrestle the quarterfinal round, which would make Saturday's long day much better.

[afan 4]

11 hours ago, Caleb.Canter22 said:

I am not suggesting that KHSAA is taking advantage of the wrestling state tournament or doing wrong intentionally

...after what I learned last night, I'm not so sure.

In case folks aren't aware, the free downloads folder of podium pictures has been eliminated with no advance warning or explanation unless you email them to ask.  I did and here is the response I was given:  "The free download folder was removed to put Wrestling in line with our other championship events. At all of our events, only media are permitted on the competition floor to take pictures."

When I replied that some folks can't afford wrestling shoes, much less $4/pic + S&H or $125 freelance fees, and commented that these changes (plus the others) are a strange way to build wrestling in the state, I was told that "Changes to the tournament format are done working alongside the Wrestling Advisory Committee. We don't make those decisions all by ourselves.  B/c most parents that shoot pictures are doing so for the team/school/coaches, we recommend they ask the parents/coaches/school to chip in on the freelance fee in exchange for the images."

From where I'm sitting, it looks as if the changes are intentional and with full knowledge/disregard of how they will be received.

Their lack of communication (up front) followed by justifying their actions (as they did in their reply to your first email) is disrespectful and disheartening.

As I said...it's a strange way to achieve their goal of building this sport in KY.

[rjs4470 103]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

You make some good points, especially comparing wrestling to other sports that are struggling.  However without discussing the issues we have how are we to go about trying to fix them?  One of the region presidents told me a couple of years ago that at the beginning of the annual coaches/KHSAA meeting before the state tournament, the first thing Mike Barren or Julian Tackett said was that nothing is going to change, basically ignoring everything the coaches were going to say, before they said it!

Saying that wrestling isn't the only sport with problems is a valid point, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix those issues, especially when it was perfectly fine a couple of years ago (specifically regarding the finals format).  I'm glad to see them using eight mats this year and I hope they'll use the extra time on Friday afternoon to wrestle the quarterfinal round, which would make Saturday's long day much better.

Not saying at all that we shouldn't try to fix things. And by no means am I trying to say that because other sports have issues too, we should just live with the way things are.   Even if things were perfect, I'd want to see things continue to evolve.  The "how" we change things is the tougher part, and the one I don't have a real answer for.  I do know, that the whining and bellyaching many do, isn't getting it done, and doesn't help our credibility, especially when the are other sports that have as bad if not worse. 

 

[Zeus 117]

1 hour ago, afan said:

...after what I learned last night, I'm not so sure.

In case folks aren't aware, the free downloads folder of podium pictures has been eliminated with no advance warning or explanation unless you email them to ask.  I did and here is the response I was given:  "The free download folder was removed to put Wrestling in line with our other championship events. At all of our events, only media are permitted on the competition floor to take pictures."

When I replied that some folks can't afford wrestling shoes, much less $4/pic + S&H or $125 freelance fees, and commented that these changes (plus the others) are a strange way to build wrestling in the state, I was told that "Changes to the tournament format are done working alongside the Wrestling Advisory Committee. We don't make those decisions all by ourselves.  B/c most parents that shoot pictures are doing so for the team/school/coaches, we recommend they ask the parents/coaches/school to chip in on the freelance fee in exchange for the images."

From where I'm sitting, it looks as if the changes are intentional and with full knowledge/disregard of how they will be received.

Their lack of communication (up front) followed by justifying their actions (as they did in their reply to your first email) is disrespectful and disheartening.

As I said...it's a strange way to achieve their goal of building this sport in KY.

...and this is why I think you have to get their attention.  I would argue that the coaches know the sport best since they actually wrestled, some collegiately, and they're the ones in the trenches building programs to grow the sport.  Every single coach I talked to over the weekend, some of which are on the advisory committee, expressed disgust for  most of the new changes, especially the finals format and awards ceremony.

It appears that the advisory committee is simply a scapegoat.  When I spoke with one of the assistant commissioners about the changes, I was told I need to go through the advisory committee.  My question is though, if you're not going to listen to the committee then why have it?  Just tell the wrestling community that you yourselves have decided to make changes and we'll have to deal with it.  Don't make Tim Ruschell, I just picked a name from the committee, look bad by saying that they approved of the changes when I don't think they actually did.

Also, the conference call for the coaches was held at 2:00 pm.  Many of the coaches are teachers and therefore couldn't participate in the call.  All coaches were notified via email two days before about the call.  If I was a businessman and had something scheduled at that time I wouldn't have been able to participate either.  The KHSAA has not been receptive to input from the coaches, including the advisory committee.

[Coach Wagers 43]

30 minutes ago, Zeus said:

 Don't make Tim Ruschell, I just picked a name from the committee, look bad by saying that they approved of the changes when I don't think they actually did.

Also, the conference call for the coaches was held at 2:00 pm.  Many of the coaches are teachers and therefore couldn't participate in the call.  All coaches were notified via email two days before about the call.  If I was a businessman and had something scheduled at that time I wouldn't have been able to participate either.  The KHSAA has not been receptive to input from the coaches, including the advisory committee.

I stand by the man daily.... I told him what the changes were before he knew or heard about them.......  And I found them on here then validated via KHSAA. 

From what I understand; they take very minimal advice from the committee, experience or not.  I don't know how much belly aching the committee does, but when you have coaches that come to the table with ideas to better the situation, and many years experience, one would think they would listen.  I don't think they listen.  That is evident by the format this year.  KHSAA was confident that it would provide a better atmosphere and be done in a timely manner.  Well, we all know how that went.  I don't blame them for trying something new, however when you have people with experience and knowledge of the sport, a good leader would listen.  Anyone with wrestling experience and awareness could look at the format and know that it would take 4+ hours (and it actually took 5).  I don't know the reasoning and who crunched the numbers showing that format would be successful, but the KHSAA definitely has very little knowledge/awareness regarding how to run a tournament.  And a tournament of this nature makes it mind boggling to not want to do what is "best". 

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

 One of the region presidents told me a couple of years ago that at the beginning of the annual coaches/KHSAA meeting before the state tournament, the first thing Mike Barren or Julian Tackett said was that nothing is going to change, basically ignoring everything the coaches were going to say, before they said it!

 

This right here..... I have heard multiple times over the last 2 years coaching in KY.  From multiple different coaches on and off the committee.

[firemans34 33]

During the tourney I spoke with a coach regarding the change.  He said he asked a pretty influential KHSAA representative why they decided to change the format.  He was told Julian Tackett did it only to show that he could.  Sounds like having an advisory committe is only a facade to show they are collaborative.  This may be the push to finally start a NHSCA or a KWCA state tournament.  KHSAA will not change, but if they do it will be like turning a cruise ship anyway leaving us to vent for years to come.  Rip the band aid off and let them deal with the new four year contract at the horse park that they will have to eat.

[Mathound 4]

I sent you an email Caleb, but my main problems with the new format changes for the championship:

1. The new format was much less spectacular
2. The format was confusing
3. The session was longer and thus less exciting

All in all, maybe one step forward and three steps back. I'm for change, but not at the expense of making the sport less exciting and spectacular.

These changes are not in alignment with the changes happening around the world to modernize the sport and to make it a more watchable sport.

[Caleb.Canter22 13]

I really want to emphasize that my intentions are not to damage the KHSAA or try to make drastic changes. I strongly urge you to really take the time and think about the implications of the actions each and every one of you are suggesting. I think it would be a huge mistake to try to boycott or do anything else to try to hurt the KHSAA.  

I am really not liking the direction these conversations are going, and I hope that you all will take the time to be rational and realize that there are better ways to go about fixing this issue. 

 

 

 

 

[firemans34 33]

What's really sad and somewhat lost in all of this is the finals matches were the best they have been in many years.  A lot of close, very entertaining matches.  Had they been back to back it would have been an incredibly entertaining finals.  

[Mathound 4]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread before it gets out of hand... if you have someone you would like to be included in the response to the KHSAA, be sure to email Caleb