State Seeds and brackets

[plantmanky1 58]

47 minutes ago, REscalera said:

 

Which one is it?  Head to head or coach on the call fighting for their kid.  If there is a criteria then it should be followed whether the Coach is on the call or not.  Otherwise it does end up looking like a bias of some sort.  

There was criteria and it was used.  In situations where nobody knows anything about what a wrestler has done during the season and a coach is not on the call to provide the information, what would you do?

[JC1 4]

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[plantmanky1 58]

25 minutes ago, JC1 said:

10 hours ago, JC1 said:

. Not there to fight for their wrestler? So that's an automatic four-seed? That's not an efficient or fair way to seed.  The governing body needs to create black-and-white seeding criteria. Then coaches need to support  the process and fact-finding  with integrity.  So when times like this present itself, when coaches are unavailable. A neutral system is process can override opinion, bias, or whatever. But rationale of fighting for your wrestler is .....well fill in the blank

 

25 minutes ago, JC1 said:

My intention was to simply point out a gap in our system. My goal was to have somebody from the Board of Directors (or whatever we call them) to understand we need a black and white criteria and build a robust system to the seeding process. Key word "system." -- Try to eliminate subjectivity.

What I have seen here is:

• TwenhofelCoach says "yeah! Don't show up and you get what you get!" - (paraphrasing) This is not a comment to move Ky Wrestling forward.
• Chris Duke blaming not having the results. (Duke himself posted the results -- see attached image)
• plantmanky1 kind of riding the fence between 1) yes one of Carr's should have been and 2) I can see you're point. (which this is very fair.)
• A bunch of people checking out my profile to find who is this guy rattling the cage?
• Finally REscalera understands my point. (Thanks)

Facts are that other coaches knew the results. Ryle knew, Whoever reads these post knew (again, see the Duke post), Twenhofel knew - when the Ryle coach got ran from the gym they were the ones yelling the loudest to eject him. So I know the NKY crew is tired of hearing about the bias, but this doesn't help your case.

There needs to be an intelligent conversation on how to improve the method we have. (So this excludes you TwenhofelCoach). What we have isn't working, because dare I say.... some coaches integrity needs questioned? Yes, I believe Chris Duke was on the right path about not knowing all results. For the majority of the time it is missing. Not utilizing Track doesn't help either. I really wanted the BoD to take notice and drive change. This state is behind in wrestling and not sure if we are closing the gap or it's getting larger.

 

 

The BoD can not make coaches get on a call and support their kids.  If those coaches choose not to do so thats on them, it kinda goes back to your point about integrity.  

[Chris Duke 284]

25 minutes ago, JC1 said:

My intention was to simply point out a gap in our system. My goal was to have somebody from the Board of Directors (or whatever we call them) to understand we need a black and white criteria and build a robust system to the seeding process. Key word "system." -- Try to eliminate subjectivity.

What I have seen here is:

• TwenhofelCoach says "yeah! Don't show up and you get what you get!" - (paraphrasing) This is not a comment to move Ky Wrestling forward.
• Chris Duke blaming not having the results. (Duke himself posted the results -- see attached image)
• plantmanky1 kind of riding the fence between 1) yes one of Carr's should have been and 2) I can see you're point. (which this is very fair.)
• A bunch of people checking out my profile to find who is this guy rattling the cage?
• Finally REscalera understands my point. (Thanks)

Facts are that other coaches knew the results. Ryle knew, Whoever reads these post knew (again, see the Duke post), Twenhofel knew - when the Ryle coach got ran from the gym they were the ones yelling the loudest to eject him. So I know the NKY crew is tired of hearing about the bias, but this doesn't help your case.

There needs to be an intelligent conversation on how to improve the method we have. (So this excludes you TwenhofelCoach). What we have isn't working, because dare I say.... some coaches integrity needs questioned? Yes, I believe Chris Duke was on the right path about not knowing all results. For the majority of the time it is missing. Not utilizing Track doesn't help either. I really wanted the BoD to take notice and drive change. This state is behind in wrestling and not sure if we are closing the gap or it's getting larger.

 

Your right I posted the results.  Who is responsible for looking all this up before the meeting?  Your coach!!!  Trust me I did my home work for our coaches.  If there was a central location "TRACK" it would make it easier.  The problem is we haven't made it there.  You can't expect a coach from another team to remember who beat who!    

[Nike Man 292]

Don't have a dog in the fight, but I would expect a coach (with integrity), that has a head to head loss with another seedable wrestler, would do the admirable thing and admit the defeat. 

[Armbar215 2]

Criteria was used last year placing results.  Adams finished higher then Lee.  Lee finished higher than Lenhart. Lenhart finished higher then Cowan. Cowan didn't place. 

[REscalera 189]

1 hour ago, plantmanky1 said:

It didnt, but head to head only works when your seeding two wrestlers (or trying to decipher between two wrestlers for a seed).  Different animal when you are seeding 4. 

So has any of the 4 1 seeds faced each other this year?  I can certainly see how that question can become a different animal.  Any hoot good luck to all the kids.  To those of you that feel slighted because grown men got over on you to make it easier for their wrestler. That's part of wrestling as well as life in general.  Get over it, stay positive and focused on your goals.  

[Armbar215 2]

I think it is also funny that a coach screws up and blame is put on everybody else. This is what is wrong with the world today. Connor Lee's loss to Cowan was mentioned and over looked. The next criteria was last years placing and that is what was used. So instead of bashing NKY or Ryle why not say you screwed up take ownership for not doing what people pay you to do (which is what is best for your kids) and do your job and be where your supposed to be. Chalk it up as a learned lesson and make sure you pick up the phone. 

[REscalera 189]

11 minutes ago, Armbar215 said:

Criteria was used last year placing results.  Adams finished higher then Lee.  Lee finished higher than Lenhart. Lenhart finished higher then Cowan. Cowan didn't place. 

It was stated that the first criteria is head to head.  If that was followed Cowan would be the 2 seed.  

[Go Shamrocks 2]

More complicated than that because Lenhart trumps Cowan on 2nd & 3rd criteria mentioned on call ( state placing and common opponent performance) 

[twenhofelcoach 61]

Agreed, at the time of the seed meeting no one brought up Cowan beating Lee. And truthfully only two coaches each one from their respective teams would know that win/defeat. Or even how many times they wrestled this year. With one not being present it didn't get brought up. 

6 hours ago, REscalera said:

I agree with you on that point. We can certainly improve in that area.  However, if head to head is the first criteria and only one of the coaches was not on the call, that means the other was.  So if the question is asked it should be quite simple.  The head to head doesn't go out the window because one of the coaches isn't on the call.   The kid earned it and the way it ended up can certainly leave others thinking bias.   

 

[RTRBURN 15]

Do you guys not understand that the #4 seed is equal to the #1 seed when its a blind draw for the rest of the guys? You just want bragging rights? #1 seed doesn't guarantee wrestling a lower seed like Districts

[Armbar215 2]

The Ryle coach did mention Cowans win over Lee. But it isn't his job to fight for a wrestler of another team. 

[marriedtothemat 13]

The criteria for seeding was set before discussion started. I am not saying the criteria was followed or wasn't, just that it was stated before seeding began.

1. Head to Head

2. Common opponent

3. Prior year state placement

4. Record

 

 

[raidercoach 51]

The seeds are correct based on the criteria.  The head-to-head could not determine the top 4 seeds based on Lee/Lenhart being 1-1 against each other this year and Lenhart and Cowan not wrestling each other. Hence, since the head-to-head criteria could not determine the top 4, last year's state placement was used to break the tie between Lee, Cowan, and Lenhart.  Lee was the highest returning placer between the 3, therefore, he got the 2 seed.      Lenhart placed higher than Cowan who I believe did not place last year.  

It would be nice if people actually understood how the seeding criteria are used before they accused teams of "bias" and questioned coaches' "integrity".  

[JC1 4]

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[gameface 253]

 

Maybe if the ones complaining about the system would have taken this much time on the seeding call they'd have a better understanding why their kid got the seed he did. I was on the seed meeting call and from the beginning the KSWA president stated that he would announce the Regions #1 seeds then Allow each respective coach to state their wrestlers accomplishments. I heard several times coaches list records for each weight class, records(in and out of state) due to the location of some teams like Union County, NKY teams and EKY teams OR kids that are good enough to compete nationally. Kids that were 30-1 with one loss to an in state  kid and the loss was to another #1 seed ,but last year wasn't a state qualifier, but the one loss was last years state champ,  but the kid that won lost twice to another #1 that lost to the 30-1 kid!!! (YOU GET MY POINT) Wrestlers in different weight classes beating ranked high school kids but now has dropped weight and now a 1 seed due to winning regions. 3 way criterias that sounded like a "who's on first "episode. It may not be a perfect system but all the coaches except 6 teams had someone on there to present their kids information. Allowing the other coaches to do the same and come up with the 4 seeds. Everyone worked together really well to get thru all weight classes and the president navigated the conversation. The bottom line is that this process is what the KSWA has in place and each coach has known this for years to be included in the conversation. Also  one other point, during the season this forum page is a ghost town with tournament results. So many post on here to promote the tourney but very few post results. That doesn't change the process but does provide additional information that all coaches can look at to help see head to head, common opponents etc. some teams did their homework and some just decided to not be involved and allow the systems put their kids where they actually belong! And for the ones that want to beat on Rangers Rankings, several weight classes have either the #1 and #2 or even too 3 kids in state in the same region. So one could argue that a Region with 3 dominating kids in the state should be the top 3 seeds regardless of Region champs. Nobody has beat these 3 kids in the state but they've beat the other region champs!! GOOD LUCK TO ALL AT STATE. I FOR 1 AM GLAD WE ARE FINALLY SEEING SOME CONVERSATION ON HERE ABOUT MIDDLE SCHOOL WRESTLING!!!  WE ARE ALL BLESSED TO BE APART OF THIS GREAT SPORT!!

[raidercoach 51]

3 minutes ago, JC1 said:

Sorry plantmanky1, I was inferring to make changes to the process not the seeding for the tournament. 

I just see a gap. We essentially had a three way tie, so to speak for the two seed and to process to define. I believe in data. Yes their was criteria set, but it did not work for this scenario. No matter how you seed the 2 thru 4. I am only thinking prevention measures, improving the method. I believe if their is any question of seeding, we should be able to point to a bylaw that reads xyz... and with the given results an answer or order gets set. I think the BoD can implement or propose something of the sort. 

Past is past, how can we make it better for our future wrestlers. That's where my concern lies. I feel all youth sports get run by dad's with short term goals. Just make it through till my kid gets out and let the next wave worry about the issues. 

No, I am not Zac's dad, he and Conner's dad are much to wise to jump into this. I am just another face in the crowd that is a big Zac fan. 

I will bow out of the conversation and hope people comment intelligently and shake my head at the ones that dont comprehend what they read and fly off the cuff with a nonproductive comment. 

Data was used and the criteria did exactly what it was designed to do:  break ties.  You clearly don't like the results, but don't act as if the criteria wasn't used.  The criteria used for this tournament is the same criteria used for many major tournaments across the country.  No conspiracy, no bias...just the appropriate application of predetermined and agreed to criteria was used to seed this weight class.  

If you were using the criteria to just seed between Lee and Cowan, Cowan would have been seeded higher than Lee.  However, that is not how the seeds are set.  Had Cowan wrested Lenhart and won, Cowan would have ended up with 2 seed, Lee the 3 seed, and Lenhart the 4 seed.  But they didn't, so it ended up the way it did.  

[tekejew 19]

1 hour ago, marriedtothemat said:

The criteria for seeding was set before discussion started. I am not saying the criteria was followed or wasn't, just that it was stated before seeding began.

1. Head to Head

2. Common opponent

3. Prior year state placement

4. Record

 

 

That number 4 criteria was not used during the meeting, I know that for a fact since I got the 2 seed at 80 because Kinley beat a runner up and we beat the 3rd place finisher. When ask about records we had no losses in the state while he did and we still got pushed to 2. Also not sure who gets to vote, but at one point someone said the vote was 4-1 not in my favor? Find it hard to understand this when really it's suppose to be the 4 champs from each region. Here in western Ky we might not be the best in class but I do know 2 plus 2 lol. I agree that it all has to play out in the end, but I did feel the criteria wasn't really enforced when you got to records. I also realize the level some kids wrestle is high but if that's the criteria then that's it. I been on both ends in while coaching in high school. 

[Nolans Dad 36]

I checked the Track Tournament... Just curious if the Ranking next to the name will be set up like a NCAA Basketball tournament bracket? Same format? Like for example the #8 vs #9... #7 vs#10? #1 vs #16? And also how many wrestlers medal? Top 4 or Top 6?

[rjs4470 103]

8 minutes ago, Nolans Dad said:

I checked the Track Tournament... Just curious if the Ranking next to the name will be set up like a NCAA Basketball tournament bracket? Same format? Like for example the #8 vs #9... #7 vs#10? #1 vs #16? And also how many wrestlers medal? Top 4 or Top 6?

No.  All wrestlers are NOT seeded.  Only the 4 regions winners were seeded, and the rest of the region is drawn in based on regional placement following the regional winner.  So there are no seeds beyond the top 4.  

Top 6 medal.

[Nolans Dad 36]

Ok... On Track my son has a 4 next to his name... and every other wrestler has a number as well... do those numbers next to the name mean anything?

[rjs4470 103]

8 minutes ago, Nolans Dad said:

Ok... On Track my son has a 4 next to his name... and every other wrestler has a number as well... do those numbers next to the name mean anything?

They are bout numbers.

[Nolans Dad 36]

It actually has the bracket already made, finally found it 2.. And it was set up by the number next to the name... so that's cool.. We are ready to rock and roll... Should be a fun day! Lot of tough weight classes.. 

[rjs4470 103]

1 minute ago, Nolans Dad said:

It actually has the bracket already made.... And it was set up by the number next to the name... so that's cool.. We are ready to rock and roll... Should be a fun day! Lot of tough weight classes.. 

I thought you were referring to the numbers in the bracket.  The numbers next to the wrestlers are "seeds".  However, only the first 4 wrestlers are seeded (the 4 region champs).  The others really don't mean anything except positions in the bracket.  Don't overthink this.