Boy can't compete on high school girls' team

[Mathound 4]

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/16131890.htm

"Why not treat the genders equally?" he asked. "If women can go on our football team and they can wrestle in tournaments, why in the world if there's no access for a male to participate in gymnastics should they not be on the girls' team?"

Another Title IX topic. The tides have turned. A decent read.

[kdsmith27 14]

Pitiful

[upstart 0]

okay, I get the idea, but let's be real. A girl competing on football or wrestling is, or at least should be, held to the same standard as a male. There is not a seperate form of the sport for females. Men's and women's gymnastics is quite different. Guy's floor exercise is a differnt animal than girls. Parallel bars versus uneven...again two very different disciplines. A latteral toss is a latteral toss no matter what "gender" is throwing it.

[CCFullerHWT 1]

i can't do gymnastics?? lol

[grappler-of-old 44]

Pitiful

Pitiful???

Are you kidding me.  It's about time someone stood up and challenged the Title IX (Aghh that puts a bad taste in my mouth) rule.  People have missinterpreted this rule for to long and it has hurt wrestling the most.

It was the reason NKU, UK, and many other collages dropped wrestling. 

We can't judge this kid because he is a male and wants to compete in gymnastics.  All he wanted to do was compete.  Its no different than the many girls who compete against the boys in wrestling.  Many may laugh and scoff at them but they are doing what they love.  Playing the sport that they love and competing in it.

[kdsmith27 14]

Pitiful???

Are you kidding me.  It's about time someone stood up and challenged the Title IX (Aghh that puts a bad taste in my mouth) rule.   People have missinterpreted this rule for to long and it has hurt wrestling the most.

It was the reason NKU, UK, and many other collages dropped wrestling.   

We can't judge this kid because he is a male and wants to compete in gymnastics.  All he wanted to do was compete.  Its no different than the many girls who compete against the boys in wrestling.  Many may laugh and scoff at them but they are doing what they love.  Playing the sport that they love and competing in it.

I did not mean it negitively, I was saying it's pitiful that he can't.

[upstart 0]

come on people! I will agree that he should be able to compete, but not as a representative of a girls team. He would have to compete at mixed events on men's apparatus. There are reason's the vault is different and floor exercise is different.

There are times when genetics and what the body can physically do must be considered. I get the whole Title IX issue. If there is an opportunity for competition it really should apply to both genders. Why do you think so many schools pulled in volleyball? It was an attempt to balance numbers from football.

You know, there are times when men and women must accept differences as a good thing. Realistically a female does not have the same potential for upper body strength as a male. That's just the way it is. How many of you have tried to pin a girl and just couldn't get her to stop twisting out? Girls are more limber in the back than males, we can usually actually bridge better if we can get the lift. Our flexibility is the key.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Why do I say he doesn't belong when I think women should continue to wrestle? I am not sure it is great for girls to compete against the guys after middle school. Eventually female weight classes will come in any guys will be able to get over the idea of touching a girl "like that." Until then, girls and guys will meet on the mat. Put the guy in a leotard and he can compete, eventually guy's gymnastics will make it to Wis.

[wrest65 0]

Youa re exactly right - it would be diffcult for the boy to compete at women's gymnastics b/c it is a slightly different sport.  Is he going to compete in the balance beam and as mentioned before- men's vaulting is different than women's.

Title IX was created b/c for many many years schools would not carry sports that girls could compete in  - at first is was more a social issue and then (and still is) it became just as much an economic issue.  Girls did not (and in some case still do not) have the same athletic opportunities as boys.  And while it would be great if there was a boys gymnastics program - it is not feasible for him to compete with the women. Girls wrestle, play football, etc with boys b/c they do not have to modify the sport.  And like the development of women's hockey & soccer as the interest in women's sports grows so will the development of additional sports teams.

[upstart 0]

yeahhhhh, someone that gets it!  :-o

[grappler-of-old 44]

come on people! I will agree that he should be able to compete, but not as a representative of a girls team. He would have to compete at mixed events on men's apparatus. There are reason's the vault is different and floor exercise is different.

No one says that they don't understand this part.

, eventually guy's gymnastics will make it to Wis.

My arguement is, what if this was reversed?  The Girl would be allowed to compete.  They would have changed the events for her to compete.  Or they would have been forced to start a womens/girls gymnastics team.

[wrest65 0]

No one says that they don't understand this part.

My arguement is, what if this was reversed?  The Girl would be allowed to compete.  They would have changed the events for her to compete.  Or they would have been forced to start a womens/girls gymnastics team.

I have to respectfully disagree.  In this situation a girl would not be allowed to compete on the boys gymnastice team - it is a different sport.  Men have five events/women four and of the five only one could be considered the "same".  In the past men's gymnastics has NEVER changed it's sport to allow women to compete with men.  I think the perception that girls are treated "better" or that boys are a victim of reverse discrimination is magnified by these types of situations.  For so many years girls were not given the same opportunities as boys and I think that is deplorable and now people resent when in some cases girls are getting a few opportunities that have been denied to them in the past.

[grappler-of-old 44]

[quote author=wrest65 link=topic=1457.msg17744#msg17744 date=1170434493 I think that is deplorable and now people resent when in some cases girls are getting a few opportunities that have been denied to them in the past.

What people resent are not that girls/women are now getting opportunities, it is that boys/men have lost opportunities.  Over 400 Wrestling programs where lost most of them because of Title IX.

I know that was not the intention of title IX, but it is what has happened.  Wrestling was hit the worst by this Act. 

[upstart 0]

I don't see how you can say programs were lost due to title IX. There was a simple fix...let girls compete. Unfortunately, I don't think we are ready for Title IX to go away. Eventually a time will come when guys and girls have "equity" in sports. Until then, Title IX will be needed.

Why do you think so many schools have put in soccer? It is a balance of use for the field...50% is written off for female sports. As many smaller schools play soccer and football on the same field it means 33% of that field is accounted for as "girls" in the books. I will not go into the issues that brings up. Field hockey balances things out even better due to field costs.

An easy fix for balance would be states allowing competative cheerleaders to count. I don't mean the rah-rah's at the football/basketball games, but the girls that travel and do stunt competitions. Like it or not, it takes athleticism at a level equal many other sports. (I won't ever say one sport is harder than another--they are too different to compare like that.) 

I guess I am just irritated. The thought of a guy competing in "girls" sport that has a male counter which is so different than the femae version is frustrating.

When it comes down to it, It would be great if there were girl specific weight divisions so the guys and girls didn't have to go head to head, but until then...BTW, I would love to see girls football too, if only for a good laugh...think powderpuff and male cheerleaders.

[wrest65 0]

What people resent are not that girls/women are now getting opportunities, it is that boys/men have lost opportunities.  Over 400 Wrestling programs where lost most of them because of Title IX.

I know that was not the intention of title IX, but it is what has happened.  Wrestling was hit the worst by this Act. 

Also keep in mind that was 400 institutions that were not offerring opportunities to its female athletes.  There are economic factors to consider also- smaller sports such as wrestling are easier to make cuts in b/c they do not bring in the money like football and basketball.  So Title IX alone did not create this situation.  Women athletes should have the same opportunities as male athletes and it is too bad it had a negative effect on some wrestling programs - but then it becomes obvious that these schools were not treating their athletes equally and maybe the resentment should be focused on the schools that are allowing these inequalities.

[grappler-of-old 44]

    When schools are forced to cut programs because they cannot get enough girls to compete in sports it is a travesty.

    If girls want to compete I have no problem with that.  It what title IX was meant for.  The problem arises when a school offers fast and slow pitch softball, volleyball, swimming, basketball for girls, and cannot get enough girls to play.  When this happens the equity is unbalanced, and schools are forced to drop boys sports.  This has happened, I know of one situation where the school was told to fire all of their girl team coaches because they could not recruit enough girls to compete. 

    Those 400 programs that were lost were not lost because they did not offer women sports they were lost because they could not get enough girls to participate in other sports.

[wrest65 0]

     When schools are forced to cut programs because they cannot get enough girls to compete in sports it is a travesty.

     If girls want to compete I have no problem with that.  It what title IX was meant for.  The problem arises when a school offers fast and slow pitch softball, volleyball, swimming, basketball for girls, and cannot get enough girls to play.  When this happens the equity is unbalanced, and schools are forced to drop boys sports.  This has happened, I know of one situation where the school was told to fire all of their girl team coaches because they could not recruit enough girls to compete. 

I will agree that we can find cases where the implemention makes no sense and in the end hurts more atheletes than it helps.  There are flaws to every system and we need to work to correct them - not scrap the whole program.

I guess the bottom line the situation with the male gymnast is not a comparable situation - it is too bad he cannot compete - but competing on the women's team is not viable remedy to the issue.

It is too bad when any athelete male or female cannot reach his full potential.

     Those 400 programs that were lost were not lost because they did not offer women sports they were lost because they could not get enough girls to participate in other sports.

[upstart 0]

Very right about pulling teeth to get girls to compete. I coached soccer in a small district (@400 in the HS) and literally talked to every incoming freshman as well as every other female I could. I talked to the middle schoolers too. We started as JV mixed then went JV/V mixed the second year. I left the system and they went JV/V G/B the 3rd year. The girls team shut down 1/2 way through the season that year and never restarted. They also can't get but a few girls to play in a mixed squad each year. I fell bad for them. I felt like I was pulling teeth. Mat maids and dance team got more interest than a sport.

Title IX does not take into account the efforts of schools to include females, it just penalizes them for not doing enough.

[wrest65 0]

Very right about pulling teeth to get girls to compete. I coached soccer in a small district (@400 in the HS) and literally talked to every incoming freshman as well as every other female I could. I talked to the middle schoolers too. We started as JV mixed then went JV/V mixed the second year. I left the system and they went JV/V G/B the 3rd year. The girls team shut down 1/2 way through the season that year and never restarted. They also can't get but a few girls to play in a mixed squad each year. I fell bad for them. I felt like I was pulling teeth. Mat maids and dance team got more interest than a sport.

Title IX does not take into account the efforts of schools to include females, it just penalizes them for not doing enough.

It is not going to change overnight.  They send out notices in elementary schools with cheerleading for the girls and basketball for the boys.  Girls have been marginalized in the sports world for a long time and it is going to take more than couple of years to get girls to believe in themselves and lets be honest regarding the girl "jock".  So as there are more than more high high profile female athletes women's sports will grow.  It is and was the same for smaller male sports - in some schools they do not have full wrestling teams b/c it is a new sport etc.  Soccer took some time to develop.

[tc125 0]

One of the other schools hit by this was the university of kentucky. they were forced to get rid of their wrestling team because of title IX. that's just not fair.

[wrest65 0]

One of the other schools hit by this was the university of kentucky. they were forced to get rid of their wrestling team because of title IX. that's just not fair.

It is more complicated than getting rid of one for the another.  But even if that is the case you are right it does not seem right.  There are flaws with every rule etc.  and it was never meant to take sports away from boys and replace them with girls.  For some schools it is economics and how it chooses to spend its money to insure equity.  I am sure that wrestling at UK was not a big revenue producer so it was an easy sport to cut to save money.  In the end one can only hope this have give more athletes more opportunities.

[tc125 0]

it shouldn't matter how big of a revenue producer it is, that's beside the point. should we cut girls softball because of that, girls soccer? no. cutting any sport for equity isn't right. it's not the wrestling teams fault that there weren't enough girls interested in playing sports. why punish a completely different group of people for something they have nothing to do with just because the boys have more sports than the girls. all sports should be offered at all colleges and highschools, or no sports should be offered. it's as simple as that. and if one sport doesnt have enough people to do it or it isnt worth it because of a lack of people, then cut it from the fundings for that year or until you get more people. or simply make them raise the money needed. we have to raise all of our money for our wrestling program, we aren't given any money. we do fundraisers to get the money for our mats and singlets and everything we get throughout the season. it's all or nothing if you ask me.

[wrest65 0]

Let me explain Title IX - to be in compliance there is a three-prong test" of an institution's compliance.

Prong one - Providing athletic opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment.

Prong two - Demonstrate a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented gender.

Prong three - Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented gender.

The purpose is to allow both males and females equal participation and opportunities in federally funded educational institutions. Some schools which have historically spent more resources on male sports teams, have taken issue with the law.

Here are some stats on Title IX that might be helpful:

Title IX has caused controversy, with some groups claiming that it has caused some schools to spend less money on 'minor' or 'non-money-making' men's sports programs such as wrestling, cross country, swimming, gymnastics, fencing and volleyball. On the other hand, supporters of Title IX point to statistics (from a GAO study) that indicate male collegiate sport participation has increased since the inception of Title IX, and that so-called "non-revenue" sports were being eliminated frequently even before Title IX.

However, while the GAO study shows that male participation in sports was up 5% over the 1981 to 1998 time frame, male college enrollment during those years was up almost 19%. The number of men's sports teams available per male student has declined 21% over that time. Teams such as tennis, track and field, and swimming have decreased for men, while women's teams have increased. Although there are now more teams available to women than to men, the total number of male participants still significantly outnumber women; in 1998-99 there were 232,000 males participating in college athletics and 163,000 females.

Before Title IX passed, an estimated 290,000 high school girls participated in competitive sports. Now it's estimated, there are more than 1.9 million and counting. There is performance, too, whether in women's volleyball, gymnastics or in the overall record of American women at the Olympic games in Atlanta. Finally, there is fairness: Title IX lets women compete for athletic scholarships once open only to young men.

So as you can see it is very complicated and hard to tell who it has hurt and who it has helped.  As I pointed out previously women are still influenced by societal stereotypes and expectations.  I fully believe that girls should have the same choices and opportunities as boys. I think some of these schools used Title IX to cut some of its non-revenue sports and used Title IX as a cover.  It is easy to blame the people who were being discriminated against - but I fully believe that by creating opportunities for girls you do not have to take them away from the boys.

[tc125 0]

It is easy to blame the people who were being discriminated against - but I fully believe that by creating opportunities for girls you do not have to take them away from the boys.

exactly, thats all i was getting at.

[tiltfor3 20]

I've yet to see, read, or hear about the little middle school girl who is training everyday to pursue her dream of one day rowing for good ole State U. However, her chances of getting a scholarship paddling a canoe are far greater than the young man who just won his 4th middle school state title. What really gets my britches in a wad is when I see one of the teams created to become compliant and the scholarship goes to some girl from Yougoslavia. You know that is my federal money they're spending. Fellas, it ain't going to get better either.

[wrest65 0]

I've yet to see, read, or hear about the little middle school girl who is training everyday to pursue her dream of one day rowing for good ole State U. However, her chances of getting a scholarship paddling a canoe are far greater than the young man who just won his 4th middle school state title. What really gets my britches in a wad is when I see one of the teams created to become compliant and the scholarship goes to some girl from Yougoslavia. You know that is my federal money they're spending. Fellas, it ain't going to get better either.

For years and years girls have not (and even today) had the same number of scholarships available to them.  I did not see you mention the number of colleges that have "recruited" players from outside of the US.  I can think of three major basketball programs off the top of my head-these are young men so there for no one complained about scholarships being given to them.  I think that if people are mad about programs being cut you need to ask the schools to account for the money being spent on sports - the numbers of non-revenue producing sports were down before Title IX - so it is not all the fault of women's sports.  And by your logic women's rowing is of less importance than say men's wrestling - why is that? It is an Olympic sport and if there is women's team what is the issue-maybe there have should have been one from the start.

If you look you can come up with a young man here or there that has been adversely effected and to that I am sorry-but there has been years of young girls denied the same opportunities as boys and until a WOMAN stood up and forced the Title IX issues no one ever bemoaned how bad it was or that their federal money was not being spent on their daughters.