Ranger123

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General Summary:

Blue team won! Derek Smallwood got MOW. Wheeler beat Roth, Tucker beat Mattox, Moore beat Cook, Brown beat Roberts, Duncan beat Monroe, Johnson beat Miles, Smith beat Kidwell, Emerson beat Bailey, Smallwood beat Badida, Andreoni beat Ackley, Heidorf beat Williams, Cornett beat Little, Emerson beat Allgeier, Frankrone beat Davison(IN), Portman beat Reed.

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Great inaugural event!  I like the boy's shirts giving them credit for taking on the challenge.  If the KY wrestling community supports this event it will grow into one that everyone looks forrward to each year.  Middle school coaches really need to make an effort to get their kids out to watch as well as the teammates of the ones wrestling.  Getting to see nationally ranked kids scrapping locally was a treat.  The Union boys need to give this event more consideration down the road.

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Had a few people ask for match results. We will go into more detail in our video, but here are scores:

106 - Wheeler over Roth 9-4

113 - Tucker over Mattox 11-2

120 - Moore over Cook 12-0

126 - Brown over Roberts 5-3

132 - Duncan over Monroe 11-5

138 - Johnson over Miles 6-2

145 - Smith over Kidwell 13-4

152 - B Emerson over Bailey 4-2 (OT)

152 - Smallwood over Badida 21-11

160 - Andreoni over Ackley 8-4

160 - Heidorf over Williams 7-3

170 - Cornett over Little PIN

182 - M Emerson over Allgeier 4-1

195 - Frankrone over Davison 5-3 (these guys were as light or lighter than the 182s)

220 - Portman over Reed 3-1

A lot of good matchups that were tight through the end. 

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OK just because its me.  

Wow Dutch a little harsh there.  What I don't think you realize is that many families don't revolve their lives around one of there kids sports.  You and many others may do this but there are many more who don't.  Vacations, family events, and equal time to their other kids activities, and to their wrestlers other activities are all in the equation.  

And just my opinion but, spending 350 plus days a year dedicated to one sport is what is killing all sports.  It is what we in the wrestling community have complained about for years with the football coaches.  I heard another coach make this comment at the coaches clinic.  "The middle class wrestlers are becoming obsolete." When I sit back and think about it, I see what he was talking about.  

OK thats my devils advocate. 

I do however believe that this is a great event.  Those who participate and spectated and especially those who put it together should be praised.  I personally did not get to see it but I would have liked to.  (to many other responsibilities).  I believe with more positive advertizement and word of mouth this event could grow event bigger.  Maybe even a small pre season all star tourney. (4 man bracket all star event).  Let it be known that the top 4 underclassmen placers in each wt. class may recieve an invite.  That way you will have them contacting you instead of the other way around. 

Great job    and

These are the opinions of GOO nothing more and nothing less.  Take them or leave them.  It makes no difference in the grand scope of things. 

GOO out. 

Edited by grappler-of-old

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GOO I will give a response on behalf of Dutch. I think he is feeling a little bit of the pain I have dealt with for years. You can't win. No matter what you do or don't do someone will complain. I don't think his comments were directed at the middle class wrestler. Quite the opposite. Most, and actually nearly all, of the complaints we hear are from the full time kids (really parents). At least half of the kids who declined were kids who are full time wrestlers who stay pretty active year round and travel all over the place. So when those same people complain or get mad when they don't get the benefit of the doubt with rankings or being included on events/teams it gets very very frustrating. At least once every year I tell myself I'm not doing this any more just because of the whining. For every one person who gets on here and says "great job and thanks" there are 10 more sending texts and emails and cussing us (literally) for something they say doesn't matter. So again Dutch was probably just blowing off some steam in a rather kind way. 

Bottom line is this. In the last 15 years of doing rankings I've gained a lot of headaches, lost sleep, and a Pepsi from some one at the Dungeon a few years ago. In 4+ years on the ms/youth board and coaching team ky I got a lot more headaches, even less sleep, and received some t-shirts. Now when we try to take another step forward that almost everyone agrees was a good thing we still hear whining and whining. Feedback and suggestions with recommendations are encouraged. Not whining and complaining. 

Makes me wonder if I should have spent half of the hours I've given away on my own kid and team. Heck he might be Cary Kolat getting ready for the midlands. 

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GOO I will give a response on behalf of Dutch. I think he is feeling a little bit of the pain I have dealt with for years. You can't win. No matter what you do or don't do someone will complain. I don't think his comments were directed at the middle class wrestler. Quite the opposite. Most, and actually nearly all, of the complaints we hear are from the full time kids (really parents). At least half of the kids who declined were kids who are full time wrestlers who stay pretty active year round and travel all over the place. So when those same people complain or get mad when they don't get the benefit of the doubt with rankings or being included on events/teams it gets very very frustrating. At least once every year I tell myself I'm not doing this any more just because of the whining. For every one person who gets on here and says "great job and thanks" there are 10 more sending texts and emails and cussing us (literally) for something they say doesn't matter. So again Dutch was probably just blowing off some steam in a rather kind way. 

Bottom line is this. In the last 15 years of doing rankings I've gained a lot of headaches, lost sleep, and a Pepsi from some one at the Dungeon a few years ago. In 4+ years on the ms/youth board and coaching team ky I got a lot more headaches, even less sleep, and received some t-shirts. Now when we try to take another step forward that almost everyone agrees was a good thing we still hear whining and whining. Feedback and suggestions with recommendations are encouraged. Not whining and complaining. 

Makes me wonder if I should have spent half of the hours I've given away on my own kid and team. Heck he might be Cary Kolat getting ready for the midlands. 

Amen Ranger I don't post much but I feel this is worth taking the time. In that video I heard positive thing said through out about every kid but let's focus on one thing that wasn't directed at any one person. There was talk about trying to have two matches a weight class in an attempt to involve as many as possible but there wasn't enough response. I know personally that those putting this event on had one intent that was to try to create an event that would help grow KY wrestling. There are as many opinions on how to do that as there are kids that wrestle. 

As for the middle class wrestler becoming obsolete well I can tell you that isn't occurring in OH NJ PA and many other states. I can guarantee that there are many more year round wrestlers there. So is the answer that those kids that are wired to train at the highest level and want to wrestle in college are hurting the rest. Absolutely the easiest way to get kids to come out and grow the sport is to have great kids out there setting a high standard, everybody wants to be on a team with good kids. If I'm wrong why is it Trinity football has a 100 kids come out for freshman football and a large % know they aren't going to see the field they want to be on a winning program, that's human nature. So my point is a winning program will bring out more kids which equals more middle class wrestlers. 

As for Dutch personally he has two other son's that play in their school's band and that is almost year round. So he keeps balance with all his kids.

Edited by EAST

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Hey I'm just making an observation here.  I fully support anything that anyone wants to do with wrestling.  Always have and always will.  I may not participate in all the things that are offered but that is my prerogative.  I personally would have been a year round guy in my day if it was possible.  I did as much as I could in my day and traveled on my own with a couple of wresting friends as far as my ole jalopy would take us. I'm just trying to stand up for the "have nots" or at least making them heard.  Ranger knows I've been on both ends of the spectrum.  I spend many years with the "have's" at the beginning of my wrestling career and many many years with the "have nots" at the end of my wrestling career.  

I didn't really watch all the video just fast forwarded to the ones I was really interested in.  And was not sure who Dutch was referring to.  Just kind of hit a nerve and I made my point.  In no way do I think dutch is a negative Nancy or anything like that.  

Oh and I totally understand your frustration Ranger.  I for one hardly ever try to complain about the efforts you make.  I make some suggestions whenever possible and give my opinions (as I did here).  But I don't believe I've actually complained.  At least not the way most do.  I complained usually because I did not want one of our kids ranked or ranked high. 

East;  I would love to see how OH Pa and NJ progressed to where they are now.  Surely there were growing pains.  I think that KY is in one of those growing pains now.  When I mention middle class wrestlers I'm suggesting those that don't start until 8-9 grade or kids who can't participate year round.  Open mats in Nky were almost non existent this year, you could only attend SK if you were in the Kenton Co. district.  Not sure if Campbell had it or not (didn't hear one way or another) and if they did they usually have it right after school and they start at 2:30 3:00.  Found out WV had it, but missed that info some how, plus that is a long drive for many. 

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Yep I know exactly where you are coming from and you usually share your opinion with respectful thoughts and ideas the way it should be done (even when we disagree). Plus you are a knowledgeable guy or at least can admit when you don't know something. Rarely is that the case we are dealing with. 

And Dutch is definitely NOT a negative nancy. Quite the opposite. 

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Ok since i feel like i could be one of the people ranger is talking about i will throw my 2 cents worth in.I don't have a problem discussing something in gentleman fashion unless someone starts throwing insults then i can fire back with the best.Your tournament was a great idea and should be built on. Usually most years aj would have been jumping at the chance to be in it.All i have heard since he was 5 yrs old was don't burn that kid out on wrestling and my response was i am not he is burning me out bc he was always wanting to do it.Now he is getting to the end of his hs career and he wanted a break.I thought thr timing was bad other coaches thought the timing was bad but what do you do he is 18 yrs old.So i declined for him.He would have done it but he would have been at about 70% and lost.Then you have people jump in and say it doesn't matter if they win or not.Well all kids aren't the same and i know mine he would have dwelt on it and it would have been a very negative thing for him.Aj needs more work mentally than anything and if he ever gets his head on straight then i have no doubt he will be a state champ.I was one person that always said rankings don't matter.Well like i ssid people are different and your rankings have drove aj crazy.He is just so competitive and when you slight him like you have done in the past it really eats at him.Now i wouldn't just say you slighted him without facts.Freshman year he was unranked and i told him you must have just forgot he was a freshman but that wasn't the case.That year he finished 3rd.1 point from the finals to the eventual winner.Now you cant say ranger he wasn't slighted.His sophomore year you had a kid ranked above him that he beat 3 times(finally loosing 1).You had another kid ranked above him that he beat twice and once majored.His junior year he never moved up to 2nd until the kid you had ranked 2nd tore his acl.You may not like him but you should not let that change the way you rank him.I also say the same thing about refs.Just because they don't like a kid that shouldn't effect the way they call the match.I know rankings are just that but when your local paper only uses them to talk about the top ranked kids then it slights kid that have put in tons of work only to get overlooked and it bothers him to know end.I will be the first to call aj out when he is wrong but i will also be his biggest supporter when he is right(which may not be to often.lol).So you have to know when i seen the kids allstar  shirt where it said on the back BECAUSE I WAS BRAVE ENOUGH. Now to me and aj all that did was call the kids that turned it down scared.I can tell you without a doubt aj wasn't scared.He has wrestled the number1 kid in the nation and the number 4 thats a jr and is already committed to penn st.so there is not a chance in hell he was scared.So if you can't understand how that shirt would upset people then i don't think we could have a realistic debate.You made it a point in your video to call me out about frankrone wrestling but you had to go out of state to get someone it was supposed to be ky alstars.But i totally understand how hard it would be to find someone to wrestle him and they shouldn't be categorized as not brave.They need to be at the top of their game and then its a major task.O well you talked about agreeing to disagree so thats what i wanted to do.

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Now ranger here is someone complete opposite of me.  I never wanted GOO Jr. ranked.  I didn't care if he deserved it or not.  I wanted others to be ranked higher than him that probably should not have.  Not that he would rise to the occasion, he was not that kind of kid either. But I wanted to try and make him that way.  

I'm not trying to pick a fight. But this is what has been happening in our society. We can't say or write anything because it upsets others.  You could look at those singlets and say "hey they say All Star on them, my kids an all star and he still is even though he turned the opportunity down."  It makes me sick that we give participation awards and don't keep score with younger kids in many sports. Kids should learn how to lose early and often, then learn how to pick themselves up and work harder to win and be recognized. If a kid is competing in a sport because they want to be recognized then they are doing it for the wrong reason. They should be doing it because they love the sport win or lose.  I understand its more fun to win, but those who really enjoy the sport will continue doing so even if they are not recognized or praised by people they don't even know. 

I'm actually on your side here about burning kids out on wrestling or any sport.  That is why I didn't push GOO jr. to compete year round and pushed for him to compete in other sports.  Now if he would have pushed back and said "I really want to wrestle" I would have allowed him, but I kept the decision on him.  Now I don't know your kid very well.  I've watched him wrestle for many many years now.  In no way do I, or anyone else think that he is an average or below average wrestler.  He is one of the elite, Just being one of the elite is praise enough.  When your in the elite and you compete against the elite, many factors go into winning a match.  In many cases there is wins and losses between wrestlers and no clear #1 is apparent.  

Ranger and his ranking are based on statistics and his own opinion.  Maybe as you said he knows that your son needs to grow mentally therefore he was ranked lower. I really don't know and really don't care why he ranks kids where he does.  Just knowing who the better kids are is good enough for me.  

OK I've rambles on and talked nonsense long enough.  No one understand or cares what I say anyway.  Let me get back to what I do know about.  Wait a minute I don't know anything about anything.  Oh well I'm just like that senile old man on the corner yelling at cars as they pass by. 

GOO out.  

HEY SLOW THAT CAR DOWN!!!!!

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No goo i agree with you about rankings but my son don't. I try very hard to use them for motivation for him. That is the mental part i am talking about.He comes to me and doubts his self on rankings. I don't understand it but all kids are different and why it bothers him so much i don't know.If he loses a take down in practice it makes him mad.Thats the way he is and i have learned to deal with it.But i told him i do agree with him based on accomplishments at 138 he should only be 2nd behind Vasquez.If all the tournaments and papers didn't make rankings an issue i don't think he would.plus if they don't matter at all then why does ranger waste his time.

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Can't say I always agree with your rankings but I definitely respect you for putting the work in to make them. Like you said, there is no way to please everyone but I'm glad we have someone trying their best. Just ignore all the ungrateful complainers and keep doing your thing.

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Pinned500 you start off saying you don't always agree with his rankings and that is my point i didn't agree and voiced my opinion at least if i don't agree with something i have the backbone to say it.So we can't debate without being called ungrateful.lol. like i said if they didn't matter at all then why do the papers,coaches,tournaments, the state tournament all use them. I never said he doesn't put alot of work into it but if going to be the face of the sport it is open for debate

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     Saying that the ranking don't matter is painting a broad picture.  I myself think that rankings don't matter to the wrestlers themselves (or at least shouldn't).  They do matter in the fact that it has helped promote the world of high school wrestling to the general public.  It keeps people interested in wrestling where in the past it was never discussed.  I'm not sure what coaches use them but if they are used in a seed meeting, I personally chuckle every time they are mentioned. I don't believe I have ever heard them used in a post season tourney (region).  The state tourney uses it to hype the event.  

     Ranger and I have had several of these debates in the past about rankings.  If I could "have my cake and eat it to" I would like for the rankings not to be seen by the wrestlers.  But that is not possible.  If it could only be vewed by the spectators and media to promote wrestling that would be great.

     And before anyone else says it.  Yes I have had my fair share of cake, actually pbobably more than my fair share. :D

     There is nothing wrong with a little debate here and there.  I certainly don't agree with everything others say.  But I'll state my opinion and move on.  I have been known on very rare ocations to change my mind or at least lean a little closer to anothers point of view.  One that I may not have seen or heard if not for a spirited debate. But shoot lets keep the playground namecalling out of it.  

BUT HEY ITS THE SECOND DAY OF WRESTLING LET THE FUN BEGIN!!!!!

 

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I probably shouldn't have been so vague but my comment was targeted towards all of the entitled complainers that contribute nothing towards the discussion, not you WHS98, I absolutely agree that you should voice your opinion. Just figured I'd give my thoughts towards the rankings and some of the hate towards them.

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Yes WH98 you have given me your fair share of grief, but you were very straightforward and up front when I contacted you about the all star meet. I would hope that someone else in the house would eventually learn that curse words and disrespect will never earn him any rankings credit. My goal is to be right so holding a grudge only hurts my accuracy and gains me exactly nothing. And trust me there are a few guys who are not as "friendly" with me anymore over this stuff. Mind boggling. Not sure what to say regarding the conspiracy theory on the shirts. In order for that to be effective as some have interpreted we should have been more direct. I spoke with Coach Matney and his kids are on the football field as well as Meiman. Barton was out due to injury. Was I referring to them as well?

At the moment I'm on the road and can't reference my historical files, but I can pretty well recall last years situation. Elijah Owens was a returning 5th placer at 126. AJ Bindner was 8th at 113. We can debate the details of those placements (I was pretty focused on the match the injury occurred), but when I placed them both at 132 I gave the edge to Owens (higher placer at closer weight). 

The big thing most of the detractors fail to recognize is this: there is more than one kid to follow in KY. You see every one of your kids matches although sometimes don't recall all of the losses. Trackwrestling has helped a ton (when coaches keep it up to date), but there is still only so much time in the day. So results sometimes get missed or don't show up in sync with the rankings. 

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As for debates I'm good with them especially off line (where WH98 has done most of his). Heck Dutch has probably disagreed about 100 times with me in the last month. 

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So curse words and disrespect does not gain him anything in the rankings????? You just proved my point.What in the heck does that have to do with a kids ranking.Ya my kid gets mad and cusses do i agree no,but its ok for a kid to cry like a baby at practice?? If being competitive and cursing. Is the worst thing he does compared to what some kids are doing nowadays,i will be fine with that.Both very childish and you know what i mean.So your going to bring up an  8th place finish where he got a concussion and his nose was sideways and he had to ff . He has never at any level in ky. ,ele,ms or hs finished worse than 3rd except for that year.So i guess you think he was going to lose that match.lol. how did mason do against keegan.ya thought so. If keegan went 138 i am 99% sure he would be ranked number 1.and aj has wrestled him better than anyone ,loosing all 4 matches by 2 points or less, exactly like i predicted i might add.but you keep ranking on what you see at practice(by the way i know of one lower ranked kid that beat a higher ranked kid a couple weeks ago at practice.shouldn't he move up??no.... its only if you see it ) .Practice, a kids personality,who his parents are ,what school he wrestles for,what club he wrestles for should never factor into rankings ,only results. Enough said,we will see you this season and i well bet whatever you want that whatever weight aj goes he will beat your 4th place ranking.I am done.like the guy said last year when you were debating about yenter its your site and you cant disagree with the great ranger. By the way who was right about yenter??

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Never claimed to be right 100% of the time. Would be stupid to do so. But I will say I do a fairly good job. You think you can do better then knock yourself out. How 'bout this oh great seer of all rankings. Let's have a contest. And yes it has to include all the weights; not just where you kid "chooses" to go. 

Oh by the way, yes I would assume that a kid would lose a match when the brackets advances the other kid and he is losing at the time he injury defaults. 

AND Those 138 rankings were set long before I saw those matches at practice. So don't look for excuses. 

Oh why not one more thing. Yes if all else is equal then the kid who cussed me does NOT get the benefit of the doubt. I'm comfortable admitting that. But that is not the overriding factor. 

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Ranger are you really serious.  People verbally abuse you in person, and physically do things to you, (ie. dump coke on you?) Over the rankings? Shoot if that is happening then you are definatly a bigger man than myself.  I personally would have left those individuals off the rankings and stated why I left them out.  

We are just gonna have to buy you a "Pope shield".  I plexi glass box for you to travel around in.  Maybe Dutch can stand guard next to you with a nerf gun and Supper Soaker, for those unrully enough to get close to the "Pope shield" :angry::lol:

 

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Ok ranger first off let me apologize for my tactics. I have always liked you in years past and defended you to aj.He has said for years dad ranger just don't like me. My replie was always oh aj thats not true. Well i won't name names but i heard through the grapevine that was true.So i decided to just try and find out for myself.That is what the post were for.Then when you made the comment about cusing I knew he was right.So let me get this right.You think it would be ok if for example here in Louisville the person or persons doing the rankings ranked Trinty ahead of male in football because the trinity players have better behavior than male players.If so then thats where we totally disagree.You will never get on here and hear me say aj is any kind of angel.Now that would be stupid.And in my mind you liked to get a rise out of him(knowing his compulsive personality) just to watch him get mad,and we all know he would.I know he tried to do the same to you by making comments about saul beatting ryan.Not much different in my mind.I not going to compete with you on rankings its a tough job and yes i only focus on the weights i know something about.Aj can get upset and cuss many other kids cuss but know how to not do it around adults.But i am getting ready to watch football and i challenge you to watch it all day and see just how many players and coaches use foul language and these are adults.So its pretty easy to see how society picks it up so easy especially kids.Now on his ranking i will state his case on the other thread were someone is trying to get aj going by his screenname 'iambetterthanaj" lol very creative

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