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NighthawkWrestling

Campbell County 04' vs 12'

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Since the topic is raging hot on another post I figured I would open up this one to talk specifically on this match up. The great thing about these match ups is everyone has a different and unique perspective and opinion. I loved two years ago when they compared the 1996 UK men's basketball team against the 2012 UK men's basketball team. It's extremely difficult to do but I am going to give it a shot.

 

*I'm looking strictly at what these kids did in high school that current year! We know that Sean as a Senior would beat Hines but as a sophmore not so much. I am also not looking at what they have or have not done in college, strictly that year in High School is all I care about. 

 

CC 2004                                                                                      CC 2012

 

103- Kyle Griffin (Freshman) 3rd @ Reg                                     106- Stephen Maggard (Sophomore) 4th @ Reg

112- Dan Hurrlenbrink (Senior) Reg Runner up                           112- Brian Sparh (8th Grader) Reg Runner up

119- Jake Hagedorn (Junior) 3rd @ Reg                                     120- Garth Yenter (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ

125- Ben Hines (Senior) Reg Champ, State Runner up               126- Sean Fausz (Sophomore) Reg runner up, 3rd @ State

130- Corey Bankamper (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state          132- Corbin Woods (Junior) Reg runner up

135- Bo Hines (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ                       138- Paul Hamilton (Junior) Reg Champ, State runner up

140- Brian Wilson (Senior) Reg Runner up,                                  145- ??

145- Aaron Hickey (Senior) 3rd @ Reg, 5th @ state                     

152- Mike Nolan (Junior) Reg Runner up, State Champ                152- Stephan Myers (Junior) Reg Champ, State Champ

160- Adam Moeves (Senior) Reg Champ, State runner up            160- Dustin Turner (Sophomore) 3rd @ Reg

171- Jim Houze (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state                         170- Eli Matthews (Freshman) Reg Runner up

189- Kevin Orth (Junior) 3rd @ Reg, 6th @ state                           182- Brett Keaton (Sophomore) 4th @ Reg

215- Travis Friedly (Junior) Reg Runner-up                                   195- Kody Key (Junior) 4th @ Reg

HWT- Andy Hagedorn (Senior) Reg Champ, 3rd @ state               220- Austin Myers (Freshman) Reg Champ, State Champ

                                                                                                       HWT- Mason Frank (Senior) Reg Champ, State Champ

 

I'm going to blend the weight classes to get a more accurate guess.

 

103/106- Griffin at this time would beat Maggard. It would be close but dec 04.  3-0

112/ 112- Hurrlenbrink was one awful call from placing at state this year. Also at Regionals he was up on Peace until a lat drop from Peace gave him the victory. Hurrlenbrink is way too much for Sparh to handle. Maj dec Hurrlenbrink.  7-0

119/ 120- No question Yenter pins in this match up.  7-6

125/ 126- Hines as a senior vs Sean as a sophmore is a big advantage Hines. Hines ran into Murton that year who was a buzzsaw. Had Murton stayed in Ohio Hines would have been a state champ. I'm giving him the edge over Sean. Dec Hines. 10-6

130/ 132- Bankamper was outstanding an a hammer on top. He would turn Woods anyway he wanted too. Pin Bankamper 16-6

135/ 138- As good as Hamilton was that year, he still gets put through a clinic by Hines. Hines wouldn't pin him, as he wasn't much of one. But he would take Hamilton down at will. I will go conservative and give Hines a major here. 20-6

140/ 145- (Because of the weight classes it gets real tricky here) Wilson pins CC '12 145, whoever that would be. 26-6

145/ 152- Myers would pin Hickey, or Nolan so no biggie here. 26-12

152/ 160- Nolan would work Turner. Not too confident to go with a major here but a dec nonetheless. 29-12

160/ 170- Not even a match here. Moeves would work Matthews. Too much for a freshman Matthews against Moeves. Going with a pin here. 35-12

170/ 182- Houze was up 13-0 before getting reversed to his back and pinned in the quarter finals. With out that move, he is a sure fired state champ. He smashes Keaton here. Pin 04'. 41-12

189/195- Orth was very good here, had a tough regional with Stone and Roberson, both who placed high at state. Orth cruises and crushes Key. Pin 04'. And the blow out continues. 47-12

215/ 220- Austin crushes this match up. Stop the slide. Going 47-18

HWT- Hagedorn was very good and moved well for a HWT. Although Frank is superior here I see this being a close decision in a typical HWT matchup. Dec Frank. 47-21

 

Overall, this is a blow out match up. Yes CC has some heavy hitters but the overall depth of the 04' team trumps the 12' team.  I competed against the 04 team and coached against many of the 12' team in middle school. BTW i'm the same nut who did the big breakdown on CC and Union County at state last year. 

 

Have fun debating :) 

 

 

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Sounds about accurate. Be ready for a certain person to blast you with comments about strength, all Americans, D1 signees, parent coaching, Yada Yada etc. there is no right answer to this discussion, but in my opinion the 2004 team would come out on top.

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And in a real tournament real studs determine who wins , bigger guns means bigger placing , fact of life . You do Not shiw much faith in Mathews who most see as a stud , and woulda couldas if so and so had stayed in Ohio only leads one to believe thery were already second best ,compare the accomplishments of everyone on the 04 team with those of the 12 - not close , in a state tournament setting of high caliber like a Penn again not close duals do not determine the best team , state placings tournament placings do ,

I have seen teams beat teams in a dual that would not even be noticed in a state or tough tournament when the team they beat in a dual places very high .

Not that any of you actually came close to calling it as it would actually be or maybe you are dead on either way I was around in 04 no one in Ohio even knew anyone from that team , compared to Those on the 12 team known nation wide :)

Again not even close .

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With that type of thinking then you only need SAM ATM Yenter and Fausz at that big tourney to beat any of the other teams.  As stated, 1-4 people do not make a team. 

 

Using your thinking.  If for some reason both SAM and ATM would have wrestled for another team in 12, and that team had no other state qualifiers.  The two of them would have scored 63 1/2 points for thier team and tied for 17th with Wayne Co. That would mean that the team they wrestled for would be a better team than all than 16 teams in the state.

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Yeah that's how it works except you probably have their points scored wrong .

Sam had four pins and a tech more points by himself than a lot of schools .

Just looking at history and big tournaments four placers usually puts a team up there maybe not champs but up there I would take those four at their best vs the 04s top four at their best and the 12 team would win same goes for all those on the team at their best 12 would win considering some from the 12 team are still jrs it's hardly a stretch .

The 12 team had the most talent easily .

They will never wrestle they wrestle different schedules , 12 being much harder , and so looking at members their accomplishments in HS state placings titles nat placings and so on 12 easily out distances 04 90 or any team in Nky ever .

It all depends on the criteria put them all in a top tourny , Powerade super 32 Fargo , no one from 04 comes close to accomplishing what the kidson the 12 team could do , setting in the stands at 12 state and hearing some kids cime of the mat after losing and hearing teammates and parents say don't worry our big guns are going to get it done it made me angry but it was the truth , Big guns blow people out of the water . They not only score but in the proper atmosphere energise a team with confidence that leads to contagious victories :) 12 wins ,

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Using  your criteria you are correct the 12 team (or big 4) wins hands down. 

 

But dynasties are not built on a couple of individuals, its built on the team concept.  The one thing that CC has done throughout the years of Bankempers tenure there.  83-present.  I am on your side that Campbell is a dynasty with very little doubt.  And with the framework that has been built there, after Bankemper finally leaves, the team will still continue to be dominate.  That is the final criteria of a dynasty.  Can they survive after a legendary coach leaves.  And I think when Boggs finally takes over, the team will continue without missing a beat.  They have a framework built to succeed.  (and man you know how much that hurts for me to say this, but its the truth.).

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I'm a firm believer that if stacked up individual state champs from year to year. You would find that new wins the majority of the time, especially the wider the time span.

Now having said that, was the 04 team stronger as whole, maybe..... but would they do of as well if they were thrown into this years State Tournament, probably not......

I will say this, the 04 team was all about winning as a team, they feed off each other like few teams I have ever seen.

Having been around wrestling since 1974, one of the most amazing things I've seen was when the 04 team dismantled a solid #2 team at the state duals.

Starting out with 9 straight pins and only losing two individual matches. I'm not sure we will ever see that again even with the split divisions.

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Tarzan-

 

Two things-- 

 

1. In a dual, no way does the 2012 team come close to beating to 2004 team. No matter how you want to spin it it wouldn't happen. Remember, I'm comparing what they did at that time and not where they are now! Is Matthews a stud? Hell yea he is! But was he this super stud who could beat Adam Moeves or Jimmy Housz as a freshman?? Get out of here! You know absolutely diddly squat if you believe Matthews could even score on one of these two men. Ask anyone at CC, if as a FRESHMAN, could Matthews beat one of these guys and they will politely say "NO WAY". Same goes for Sean. I talked with my old high school coach who has been coaching in NKY since 1974 and he told me Sean is one of the best kids he has ever seen! But could a sophomore Sean Fausz who lost 4 times to TJ Ruschell beat Ben Hines who was a Senior that year? Not a chance! 

 

Did the 2012 team have more Nationally recognized wrestlers? Yes. But does that make it a better team? Not even close. The 2009-10 UK basketball team had 5 players drafted in the first round, 2x more than any other team, yet were they the best team? No. It's not about 3 or 4 guys, its about 14 and 2004 CC had NO holes where the 2012 had several.

 

And again this is not a dig at anyone! I enjoyed competing against the 2004 team and I especially enjoyed watching the 2012 team. But realistically they are not even close when it comes to dual or state tournament format. Just saying :)


I enjoy hearing others perspectives this can be a fun topic to debate.

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And i repeat a dual is not how you always judge the best Team , every top ranked team get there by winning big tournaments duals as well

But more so on .

And if someone was to judge the best team ever assembled for any school they would

Look at who was on it and not only what they did as a fresh but in their HS careers altogether no one on the 04 did anything that would stack up to the kids from the 12 team did are doing or will do , and they wouldn't beat the 12 team in a current top tournament .that said maybe they were solid top to bottom very admirable maybe they would win but I doubt their horses ran as far Or as fast as the 12 teams did or do . Give everyone their due but today's kids like Yenter ATM Sam Fausz - Boston - and some of the others have wrestled all across the country and in modern camps with top national level

Coaches the 04 team probably didn't even know half the moves these guys do let alone beat them , no debating the level has improved not declined , sorry to hurt the old timers feelings facts are facts

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And if someone was to judge the best team ever assembled for any school they would

Look at who was on it and not only what they did as a fresh but in their HS careers altogether

Never heard of someone judging a certain year team on what the team members did in their career? Most judge them on their ability the year in question, not what they achieved in later years or previous years. You yourself critisized someone bringing up Ruschell saying they were going by what he did in college, but according to this statement then you would use his college achievments in determining a superior team.   

 

If Cambell wins it this year then you can say the ATM of 14 beats the ATM of 12 same goes for Fausz and Mathews.  You need to look at the team as a whole and thier abilities in the year in question.

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Well this is the HighSchool forum not the college one and how Ruschell entered the picture is beyond me it's the 04 ,12 CC teams wich one was Ruschell on because I'm really lost now ,

I can say the ATM of 12 beats everyone because he did , he's a bad dude just repped 275 for ten on the bench after practice not even being 100 % no one can touch him .

ATM would pin every single kid on the 04 team in succession without breaking a sweat .

And while Ruschell places at nationals in comparrison ATM has win it twice convincingly , you don't even comprehend the level hes on .

Add him with the rest of the 12 team it's insane , and I would think someone could judge a team on a lot of things I would think being on team with a bunch of national champs placers college wrestlers would be more impressie than being on team of really good guys lol. Now I judge by talent .

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Must be nice to be able to argue over 2 different dominant teams from the same school. CC has an awesome program and I hope our slightly new program can build to be that consistent year in and year out.

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State duals are this week and some of those studs from the greatest CC team ever will be wrestling , CC hvys have been hitting it hard ,

Sinclair is a Beast and the 195 the Russian kid Gratsastonivich is a powerhouse just needs to be on the Matt more . He will be a state placer before he leaves CC .

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ATM just said I don't know why they think those teams would beat us they would have no chance , Corbin woods was a beast look at all the state champs from that team even Hamilton the laziest wrestler in CC history won from that team .

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I dont know why I have to keep saying this, but Corbin Woods as a Junior, which he was in 2012, would get rolled up and smoked by Bankamper. No question about it. Cory was a machine his senior year. Again, Paul Hamilton as a Junior against a Senior in Bo Hines would get taken down all over the mat any way Hines wanted too. These can't be serious questions!

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Night hawk your accessment is spot on. I really enjoyed and agree with your breakdown. Tarzan, you are also correct with the individual accessment of the 3 from the 2012 team yenter,sam and atm (fausz had not yet blossomed into what he has become today) now take the remaining 11 into any tournament,duel, or any othe format you like and 04 rules. and your comment about them being unheard of in ohio? they won every tournament and duel they entered in 04 including the 2 that I know of in ohio. the hammer and one off Kenwood rd.

if memory serves me. Not to mention accumulating the second most points ever in the history of the ky state tournament. yes they were all juniors and seniors except 103lb. and all the stars were in alignment.

they put on a show that was memorable, does not happen often, and should not be ridulculed or scoffed at.

by the way, we are also proud of the 2014 team and have great hopes for the future.

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The Hammer is a decent tournament but probably not as tough as Fairfield and no where near as tough as th GMVA , just kidding about woods and Paul both good kids and wrestlers , I keep hearing someone mention a coaches kid I have to think there is some brown nosing going on just being Honest , back to the question of, Who considers everyone on a teams accomplishments before or after they actually make those accomplishments in HS , everyone , if you played on a team of

Football players with four who would turn pro all from different grades fresh thru sr you would say hey I played with each of them and they were all on the same team particularly if they won a title one yr , that's a no brainer , when everyone looks back at the 12 team they will say look at all the titles they won the things they each did in HS the colleges they wrestled for and so on of course it matters , Now educate me about the 04 team - they won state I know convincingly , I doubt they had the comp the 12 team had ? They did not wrestle their schedule or anything remotely close to it , what did any of them do out side of Ky that yr or ever in HS All Americans ?? NHSCA Fargo ??anything I already know NONE of them won state more than twice , so it's hardly a stretch to say the 12 team and it's members we're better !!

PH a runner up and winner over Carr the next yr , SAM a champ a runner up a jr and CC first ever SR AA

Yenter a 2xer Fausz a champ an AA , ATM , Mathews still up and coming Turner the same and The rest , I'm hearing how the 04 team would do this and did that but none of them were good enough to win a title more than twice and most not that , and none actually proved they deserved to be mentioned on the same level as the 12 team , like I said in a big tournament the 12 team would have been on the Matt wrestling when the 04 team was sitting in the stands watching . Sounds like they were a solid well rounded team , they won but the 12 team evidently was better they won state duals the next yr and were runners up and the remnants of that team are still in the hunt and may well end this debate in a few days as they attempt to win state duals a second straight yr , ,SAM and ATM were not allowed to wrestle duals in 12 , or it would

Be a possible threepeat coming up .

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If i'm not mistaken Campbell has been in the Fairfield tourney since 1990.  If the 2012 team was undefeated then they must have won that tourney also. 

 

Cambell has only been in the GMV since 2010 (I think). 

 

Campbell also was ranked nationally in either 90 or 91 (25th) not sure if the 04 or 12 team was.

 

I believe only Jake Hagadorn wrestled in college for the 04 team.

 

Bo HInes was a two time finalist 2nd Jr. year and Nolan a two time finalist 2nd his Sr year to Cooper who he beat in the state finals his jr. year.

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Looking at bet team ever (in KY) you must look at Woodford Co. also.

 

93 team had 7 in the finals that year with 3 champions.  (those wrestlers would accumulate 8 champions and 14 finalists career)

 

96 Woodford team had 11 state career champions. (C. Valentine 1, C. Dunn 3, Ian Horn 3, and Joe Carr 4, (2 MOW's))

 

97 Woodford Team had 13 career state champions. (J. Gentry 1, J. Whitaker 2, C. Dunn 3, I. Horn 3 and J. Carr 4, (2 MOW's))

 

I can only tell you what they did in ky high school thats all I really study or care about (sorry)

 

I will look up the 4 CC state champion teams and give you their state breakdowns.

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Oh and did I Mention who officially has the longest Win streak in Campbell County History !!!!!

Clue - its still on going starting in 12 !!!!

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OK I'm confussed are we talking individuals or team? 

 

The information on the longest win streak in CC history I don't have.  Nor do I have a way of confirming it.  However since CC only has a few two time state champions I would guess it will be the one who recieves his 3rd state championsip. 

 

That does lead me to the question of how many wins might he have if and when he wins his 4th.  Will it be enought to top the national record?

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