MLee

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Posts posted by MLee

  4. Posted · Report reply

    1 hour ago, grappler-of-old said:

     

    I agree its a huge commitment to wrestle, but it's not unlike other sports.

    Track events are filled with kids and spectators. The time waiting to time participating ratio is very similar to wrestling. Know of any travel baseball or select soccer families? You don't see them in the Spring/Summer. AAU Bball kids play games on Saturday's and Sunday's. During their off days, I'd say a similar % are getting additional skills training. Although HS games are on Friday night, most good HS Fball teams have film study and workouts Saturday mornings. My daughter does competitive cheer (unfortunately). She goes 6 days a week. Hell, nobody practices more than our local HS band! 

    I don't think the commitment spooks kids. Poorly ran programs and events turn kids/parents off. I agree, we can reduce the time spent at the gyms, but I don't think that is the main issue with participation. 

  5. Posted · Report reply

    On 5/5/2022 at 10:37 AM, Elite Training Center KY said:

    I think we just have different aspirations for Kentucky wrestling. We have had a time when there were 4-5 nationally ranked kids at the same time out of Kentucky (Me, Brock, Fausz, Lampe, Meyers). At this same time the depth was MUCH higher than it is currently. When you have elite guys they typically train outside of their program and they will bring that stuff back to their rooms. That could be work ethic, technique, commitment level literally anything. Parents notice what other kids are doing and don't want there kids to fall behind. If little Jonny is going to 3 summer camps and Bobs dad down the street sees that he will most likely sign his kid up, that grows wrestling. Trying to build Kentucky wrestling on sheer numbers wont help as now you have a bunch of half committed wrestlers and that spreads like wild fire. There will ALWAYS be powerhouse and dominate programs, even in Ohio and other states. We should compare ourselves to other states as they are better. If you do not compare yourself then how do you know if you are getting better or worse? If all you care about is Kentucky state titles I can promise there will be 14 state champs next year just like we had the last 20+ years. 

    Why stop at nationally ranked HS kids? Why not compare NCAA AA's as an evaluator?

    I recall having a very similar discussion with a former college teammate from NE OH about this subject. I actually was bragging about the young talent we had at that time in KY (I believe you were one of them!) He then proceeded to tell me that his HS team had more NCAA AA's in the previous 5 (it may have been 10) years than our whole state has had ever. That really put things into perspective for me. 

    We'll never have what they have. Might as well accept it and move on. It doesn't mean our elite cannot compete vs theirs. Ours have and will continue to do so. But we should spend more time marketing our sport and focusing on participation. It's a #'s game. The more athletes we get interested in our sport, the more that will end up at training centers like yours and learning from the best coaches our state has to offer. 

    My 8th grader stopped wrestling and is now involved with travel football, travel basketball, and competitive track. I've seen firsthand 1000's of better than average KY athletes that has never sniffed a wrestling mat. We have the committed athletes. They're just choosing other sports. 

     

     

     

  6. Posted · Report reply

    13 minutes ago, MLee said:

    That match was a disaster. Red got hit w/ 5 stall calls in 3:18 seconds. During that time, he scored 11 points as well. He ended up w/ 15 points. Green didn’t score one takedown. The ref also called this out of bounds, which would have been another takedown by red.

     

    87958FF5-DCDC-490A-BF1D-5EED38C5CF76.png

    Ha, another way of looking at it. During that 3:18 seconds where he got hit 5 times for stalling, he was scoring a point per 18 seconds. That scoring pace equates to 20 points per match. 

    Maybe he was just tired from scoring all those points! 

    • Upvote 1

  7. Posted · Report reply

    8 hours ago, gator1 said:

    Here's the match in question...

    https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7334418-2022-khsaa-ky-state-championships/videos?playing=7510735&limit=60

    You can fast forward to 8:21 to see the final sequence.  I went ahead and counted, the stalling wrestler took 29 consecutive backward steps from 0:17 to 0:08 seconds, before the final stall call.  That's 29 backwards steps in 9 seconds.  That's not wrestling.  That should be called every time, regardless of score or match situation.  

     

     

     

    That match was a disaster. Red got hit w/ 5 stall calls in 3:18 seconds. During that time, he scored 11 points as well. He ended up w/ 15 points. Green didn’t score one takedown. The ref also called this out of bounds, which would have been another takedown by red.

     

    87958FF5-DCDC-490A-BF1D-5EED38C5CF76.png

  8. Posted · Report reply

    1 hour ago, Tapout said:

    Here’s a question: How do you score 15 points in a match and get disqualified for stalling?

    In a 5 minute match no less! I still can’t get over that one. I was watching it live on Flo and switched over to watch another match w/ about 20 seconds left. Once I saw the DQ I assumed I missed a fight or something. 

     

  9. Posted · Report reply

    2 hours ago, GooglyMoogly said:

    We need a way to evaluate officials after every competition.  Often when we compete in other states the officials are giving out their 'number' so coaches can evaluate them.  The officials with the highest ratings through the year are selected for the post season/state tournament.  This is pretty common sense in my opinion.  

    If you take pride in being an official I imagine you would also like to be selected to work the state tournament.  A rating process would create competition.  Competition incentives people to improve.  If you don't improve you don't get selected.  How is this difficult to understand? 

    Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season.  Because there is no evaluation officials are an untouchable class in the KY wrestling community and have zero incentive to improve outside of their own intrinsic motivation. If you have been officiating for 10, 20, 30 years there probably isn't a whole lot of motivation to improve your skills.  This is how we get incompetent officials at the state tournament. eh hem, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, stalling, dq! 

    Your reasoning is flawed regarding coaches evaluating officials.  Lets say an official works 6 tournaments and 6 duals through the season(I know most are doing much more especially if you include middle school/youth).  Lets say there is an average of 10 teams across those tournaments and only 2 teams per dual meet. That's 72 evaluations during the season.  If we don't incentivize/penalize coaches for doing/not doing the evaluations maybe we get 75% submitted.  So on the low end we would have 54 evaluations to build an aggregate. Doing this would create a pretty clear picture of an officials competency. There will be outliers for sure. Especially if a coach is pissed off about a match, but 30 pissed off coaches doing evaluations is not an anomaly, it is a pattern. 

    If I am an official who is not selected for post season and/or is not happy with my ranking I am probably going to do some self reflection and put more effort into improving my skills, mechanics, understanding of the rules, wrestling positions, etc. 

    I am not even sure the KHSAA would need to be involved. I think it is possible for the official's association to do this on their own.  Create a google form specific to each official.  All submissions for that official will be aggregated and the data/comments used to rank them.  It could be more intricate than this, but I just thought of the most low effort/cost effective way to do it.  

    Coaches talk about officials.  We have some good ones for sure and there are some young officials I think have real promise, but there are a few that are SOOOOOOO bad they diminish our sport's credibility and that is a problem we need to address. 

    Great post. "Perfection is not demanded from officials.  Competency is demanded from officials during the post season." Sums it up pretty well. 

    • Upvote 1

  10. Posted · Report reply

    1 hour ago, gameface said:

    Does anyone have the list and years of the 4x State Champions in order? I had the pleasure of standing there listening to Mike Bandcamper and John Roth, on the state floor, trying to count them and recall the years that it occurred. Mike and John counted 7,including Cole Thomas. I thought I had heard 9 somewhere. What I do know is that Bryce Sheffer was an inspiration for Cole Thomas his whole middle school and high school career. Bryce certainly set the bar at a level that few will ever obtain. What a great legacy he has left this wrestling community with. I am excited for Cole Thomas to be mentioned among names like Carr, Knable, Fahy, Meyers and Pinkston in the record books.  It’s been an incredible journey for sure he has blessed our family with. 

    Man, what an oversight on my part. How did I forget about him. I remember watching Sheffer rip through a tough Rumble bracket like hot butter one year. I believe he beat an undefeated kid from Elder in the finals. He was so poised and technical on his feet. Very fun to watch. I believe Cole was my towel boy that day! 

     

    • Upvote 1

  11. Posted · Report reply

    On 2/23/2022 at 7:02 PM, MLee said:

    98- Jeff Everman

    103-Joe Carr JR.

    112-David Ritchie

    119-Kyle Ruschell

    125-John Fahy

    130-Brock Irvin

    135-Dave Barnes

    140-Issac Knable

    145-Jerod Trice

    152-Willie Ennels

    160-Harrison Courtney 

    171-Tendai Charasika

    189-Miguel Merritt

    215-Austin Meyers

    HWT-Bruce Stepp

     

    **Update**
    125- Cole Thomas

    135- John Fahy

    Sorry Barnes...

    • Upvote 1

  12. Posted · Report reply

    On 2/27/2022 at 12:01 PM, MLee said:

    Time to add Cole Thomas to this discussion. 4x state champion, MOW as Senior. Never lost to a wrestler in KY all 4 years. Every finals opponent either was or went on to win a state championship. 

    Was in a discussion over the weekend. What other 4 X'ers went undefeated in KY? I know ATM never lost. Did anyone from KY beat Brock, Fahy, Courtney, Knable, Clarkston, or Harden? I don't think anyone touched Brock or Knable, but not 100%. Did Courtney ever lose from 9th-12th? No clue on Clarkston or Harden.

    • Upvote 1

  14. Posted · Report reply

    27 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

    The above would be correct. I didn't see your screenshot of the rule until after my post. However It doesn't need to be from a breakdown. The fact that you don't see how those would go together absolutely blows my mind. Good luck to whoever your team is nex

    Who determined it doesn’t need to be from a breakdown? The situations in the rule book are very specific by design..so they’re not misinterpreted. For instance, stalling is different when your a top vs a bottom wrestler. It’s different in OT than during regulation. It’s different when you’re on the line vs being in the center of the mat.

    My point is, you shouldn’t use 2 different scenarios and say the rules should be applied the same. How that ankle got trapped to his butt is ENTIRELY different than the situation in the rule book you referenced. 


     

  17. Posted · Report reply

    16 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

    I wasn’t there and the stream and replay makes it hard to see the ankle trap.  To play devils advocate here - are you saying that the ref should have ignored the rule book just to give a good show to the crowd?

    If I’m understanding Elite Training KY - he is saying that the only time in the book where stalling is automatic instead of subjective is the 5 second heel/foot pin up.  
     

    Ignore the rule book for 10 seconds here but pay intricate attention the other 5:50?  I’m not paying for a 2022 rule book but Nathan Boston seems like he has a good handle on rules.  If it’s in the book As automatic call I don’t think there was a choice.

    That being said whoa boy OT would have been wild!!

    I admit, I didn’t read the rules until after Nathan B. addressed it. After reading it, I’m still unclear. The rule book uses a specific situation where the top wrestler “grasps the far ankle and brings to the buttocks in attempting to break down the opponent.”  I assume in a tight waste/far ankle breakdown then hold the ankle to the butt after bottom wresler is broken down.

    I think we all agree, that didn’t happen. At no time did I see top grasp the ankle and bring to bottom’s butt. The ankle got trapped as the top wrestler worked up the body for wrist control. It wouldn’t surprise me if top wrestler didn’t even know it was trapped. 

  19. Posted · Report reply

    1 minute ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

    I wasn't going to reply, but I decided to watch It from Flos angle as well for better understand of your view. You can CLEARLY see the ankle trapped on camera from 18 seconds left until 8 seconds on the clock. Enough time for not 1 stall call by the book but 2. Kentucky complains about bad refs and when we have one make the right call people are upset we didn't let a ref control a outcome and send It to OT. 

    KY complains about bad refs because we have some bad refs. You stated that yourself. Have you ever seen a wrestler get disqualified for stalling after scoring 15 points in a 5 minute match w/ 6 seconds left? We did this weekend. Ridiculous 

    Again, I don’t question whether it was technically stalling. The rule speaks for itself. I just know there are situations where a no-call is warranted and in my opinion, this was clearly one of those situations.

    Congrats to your guy. 

  20. Posted · Report reply

    10 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

    I am emotionally tied to the match as I am with a ton of kids in the state. It is also odd to use "questionable" and "in the rule book" in the same sentence the way you did. I get the match didn't end how you would like scoring wise but the rule book was followed to a T and I wish the rest of the matches this tournament had the same treatment. 
     

    Since you don't know who I am behind the screen name I don't want you to think I'm hiding behind one.

    Nathan Boston

    I’ve watched the match multiple times on Flo. Bottom’s leg does come untrapped at some point while he’s on his belly, apparently waiting for OT.

    I’d like to see from the rear view, but will take your word for it that it was trapped for 5 seconds or longer. Like I mentioned, he wrestled a great match. Congrats to him and all of his coaches.

    I think most spectators would prefer OT to settle it. I also don’t think most state champs would prefer to win that way either. Bad all around, in my opinion. 

  21. Posted · Report reply

    4 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

    That's the thing, It isn't a tough call. It is literally the only time in the rule book that has a clear cut amount of time to call stalling.

     

     

    @MLee As far as guy on bottom being bellied out that is literally the reason It is stalling on top. They can't do anything with their ankle to the butt on bottom. 

    I’m guessing your emotionally tied to this match, which I’m certainly not. I’m trying to be respectful to the winner. He wrestled a great match.

    Generally speaking, though. Big matches shouldn’t be won by questionable stalling calls. It’s bad for the sport. I don’t care what’s in the rule book. Nobody should win a state championship bellied out while not moving a muscle while top wrestler is doing all the work. 

  22. Posted · Report reply

    3 minutes ago, bestmistake33 said:

    I think the stall out was an older guy.  It was hard to see from the stream if the ankle was trapped up by North Hardin in the 157 match.  If it was trapped for more than 5 seconds then that’s the right call according to how it’s normally been called.  Tough call.  
     

     

    Correct. I was wrong about it being the same ref.

  23. Posted · Report reply

    16 minutes ago, Elite Training Center KY said:

    I have the match on film if you would like to watch it as well as a beautiful 2022 rule book. If you would like to watch the match together I'll put $50 they didn't call stalling fast enough with the ankle trapped. There is only one spot in the entire rule book that says "after 5 seconds with the knee trapped to the butt It is stalling" he gave him double that. I've never seen worse reffing in my 20 year career of wrestling but to say that match wasn't text book is laughable. 

    I watched it on Flo. I couldn’t see the ankle trapped from the view they were broadcasting. After watching it again, I see what you’re saying.
     

    I still don’t like the call, but it is in the rules. My main issue is bottom man was bellied out not attempting a move either. Isn’t that stalling too, according to the rulebook? 


    No dog in the fight, but that match should have been settled in OT.

     

    • Upvote 1

  24. Posted · Report reply

    38 minutes ago, The Deputy said:

    Was it the same official that just decided the 150 pound state championship with a stalling call with 8 seconds to go in the third? That clown needs to be ran out of the gym and never needs to be invited back. 

    Yes it was (157). Another absolutely terrible call by that ref. Such a shame.